Cults

A cult doesn’t usually start with robes and chanting. It starts with a leader who feels magnetic, a group that promises belonging, and a subtle new rule: don’t question the story. We dig into the psychology of cult leaders, the behaviors that signal high-control groups, and why even smart, skeptical people can get swept up when love bombing, isolation, and fear take over.

We connect the dots between infamous cases and modern life, from the real origin of “don’t drink the Kool-Aid," to Heaven’s Gate, NXIVM, and fundamentalist sects that use secrecy to protect abuse. Along the way, we talk about how cult dynamics can show up in places that don’t label themselves as religion at all, including certain MLM structures and relationships that function like a “cult of two,” where one person becomes the only allowed source of truth and validation.

Heidi also shares a personal near-miss: a women-led community concept that rapidly morphed into something disturbing. We unpack the warning signs she saw only after stepping away, plus the practical safeguards that could've helped her. There’s even a modern twist on validation loops, including how AI can echo back paranoia in a way that sounds convincing.

Subscribe for more conversations that mix dark curiosity with real-world self-protection, and if this resonates, share the episode with a friend and leave us a review. What’s the clearest cult red flag you’ve seen up close?

Email us at info@thewomenareplotting.com, and find us on all the socials. Be safe and be excellent to each other.

Transcript

[00:00:00] Heidi: I think I am Judas at this point, you know? 'Cause she I don't know, got some crazy idea that I was, like, faking my spirituality and that I couldn't be trusted, and she fed that into AI, and it spit it back like, "Yeah, you're right." 

[00:00:15] Heidi: So yeah. But I'm grateful that however I got out, like, thank God. 'Cause I was being brainwashed. It was happening. I was in it. Even though I could see all the red flags once I got out of it and could, like, reflect back on everything. But while you're in it and, like, sleep-deprived, it's hard to explain 

[00:00:36] Etienne: Welcome listeners. This is Women Are Plotting. I'm Etienne Rose Olivier, and I'm here with my friends and co-hosts, Heidi Willis and Jane Gari 

[00:00:51] Etienne: On today's episode, we're gonna be talking about cults and 

[00:00:55] Etienne: my not so fun, but interesting fact for today is the characteristics of a cult leader actually. So they are all considered pathologically narcissistic. That is their main primary feature, but they also have an overabundant belief that they are special, that they and they alone have the answers to problems and that they should be revered.

[00:01:18] Etienne: They demand perfect loyalty from followers. They overvalue themselves and devalue those around them, and they're intolerant of criticism, and above all, they do not like being questioned or challenged. And yet, despite these less than charming traits, they have no trouble attracting those who are willing to overlook these features.

[00:01:38] Etienne: And I got that from Psychology Today. So, so much fun. Sounds so familiar. Um, yeah, I don't know who I'm thinking of, but, Heidi, I think you're gonna go second on your fun and/or interesting fact for today

[00:01:54] Heidi: So mine's kind of fun. So I was on different places, Reddit is a good one to find different things, and in their cult subreddit, somebody had posted, 

[00:02:05] Heidi: "My favorite exhibit at the British Museum in London is a suit of armor made of crocodile skin from a Roman cult of crocodile worshipers.

[00:02:14] Heidi: There was a period where Greeks, Romans, and Egyptians joined cults of Sobek, the crocodile god, and bred and mummified crocodiles as offerings." And he says, "Oldie but a goodie."

[00:02:26] Etienne: Oh

[00:02:27] Heidi: So there was cults way back when

[00:02:28] Jane: That

[00:02:30] Etienne: and really, really fucked up

[00:02:32] Heidi: So this is probably like the only funny segment we're gonna have for this. But Jane, what's yours?

[00:02:39] Jane: Sorry, I'm just still trying to get over this crocodile thing. I went to the British Museum a long time ago, and I'm like, "I don't remember the croc-" There are some things I wish I knew before I visited there. I would look that up and just stare at that thing. 

[00:02:50] Jane: Anyway, so my-- I guess it's, we could start off making it fun, since I'm a word nerd, I remember hearing for most of my life people saying like, "Oh, don't drink the Kool-Aid."

[00:03:01] Jane: Like drinking the Kool-Aid is a common American idiom meaning just to blindly accept somebody's suggestions or ideology and believing them just all in, right? When I grew up, I realized where the origin of that idiom is there was this lovely group of people, they were called the People's Temple.

[00:03:18] Jane: They were founded in the US, mostly in Indiana, and then later California. And there was this guy, Jim Jones, he was their leader, who was probably very narcissistic, as Etty said. But he moved hundreds of his followers to Guyana, which is a country in South America, in the 1970s, so they could have this utopian community down there.

[00:03:38] Jane: But on November 18, 1978, over 900 people died there because Jim Jones ordered them to drink a cyanide-laced Kool-Aid. Predominantly, they were actually drinking Flavor Aid, another fun fact, which was one of Kool-Aid's main competitors at the time, but there were also packets of Kool-Aid found on the scene.

[00:03:58] Jane: So that's the origin of stop drinking the Kool-Aid. It's a cult thing. And also, not so fun fact that it was the largest group of Americans, outside of 9/11, largest group dying at once in some kind of massacre. But, yeah, that was not very fun. Sorry.

[00:04:14] Heidi: There's some amazing documentaries on that cult, 'cause they're probably the most famous cult out there, 'cause it was so shocking. Well, they killed a politician who flew down there 'cause he heard that things were not great. So he went down there with like a film crew, and they saw what they needed to see and they were like trying to get out of dodge, get out of there, 'cause they saw it was dangerous, and they were gunned down by Jim Jones' security detail.

[00:04:39] Heidi: They were all killed, and that's when-- 'Cause Jim Jones is like, "Oh, you know, the jig is up, so let's kill my followers." So, most of them did not wanna commit suicide. Like, they were forced by gunpoint to drink the

[00:04:52] Jane: To drink the Kool-Aid. Oh my goodness

[00:04:54] Heidi: Yeah, 'cause there was a few survivors that escaped that were able to tell the story of what transpired, the sequence of events. Yeah, horrific stuff

[00:05:03] Etienne: That

[00:05:04] Jane: Like the whole, yeah, there's a lot of famous cult stories I guess that then end with a bunch of people,

[00:05:10] Heidi: Dying. The branch divisions. 

[00:05:11] Jane: Suicide by either at force or like, yeah, Heaven's Gate, that was the one in the '90s and when, what was the name of that comet? Hale-Bopp, something like that. Like this comet was coming by in 1997 and there was a group called Heaven's Gate and they were thinking like there was an alien I think coming on the comet and that they, they worshiped it. Do you remember this? And then they all

[00:05:33] Etienne: No, yeah, yeah.

[00:05:35] Jane: and purple Nikes.

[00:05:36] Heidi: Yes

[00:05:37] Jane: all... They, it was purple Nikes. I remember that being the thing that kinda haunted me about that story for some reason. But I don't know how they died by suicide. I don't know how they did it. I don't think, it 

[00:05:47] Heidi: I think it was poison. It was some kind of... 'Cause I remember seeing, it's been a while since I seen a documentary. I've been fascinated with cults, that's why it's fascinating that I almost started or became one. Oh, God. Yeah, that's the story. But, no, I remember the footage of them finding the people and them under covers and stuff, 

[00:06:09] Etienne: Oh, really? 

[00:06:10] Heidi: there wasn't any sign of violence or anything. It, I, so I'm pretty sure it was like drug overdose or something like

[00:06:17] Jane: Yeah, they were all laying like in bunk beds. I remember seeing the 

[00:06:20] Heidi: bunk beds.

[00:06:21] Etienne: Oh, that's a 

[00:06:22] Jane: with a blanket on their head and like purple Nikes. And, I remember their leader, I think castrated himself. I'm looking to see...

[00:06:29] Etienne: What?

[00:06:30] Jane: Yeah

[00:06:31] Heidi: themselves, the upper echelon, so it was not a sex cult like most of these devolve into

[00:06:37] Etienne: Wow.

[00:06:38] Jane: I'm trying to look up now, like, how did they... Wow, they were around for a long time. They had started in the '70s, and then, okay, so the mass suicide happened in California, and I'm just looking to see, like, how did they... I don't know why I-- this is like a-- well, this whole conversation's gonna be morbid, so that's fine, I guess.

[00:07:00] Jane: But they, yeah, they laid on their backs covered by purple shrouds. Purple. Again, they wore black trousers and purple Nikes. They had packed suitcases by their sides as if ready for a trip. But, it's not saying how, maybe because they don't, um... Oh, wait, no, here it is. Here we go. They all ingested a concoction of phenobarbital, vodka, and applesauce. I don't know about the applesauce. I'm sorry. I'm not making

[00:07:24] Etienne: What?

[00:07:24] Heidi: cover the taste.

[00:07:25] Jane: I'm not making it up. This is from Encyclopedia Britannica. Yeah, but to make it go

[00:07:29] Etienne: We said phenobarbital, vodka, and

[00:07:31] Jane: Vodka and applesauce, they all ate that, like, mm, yummy, I guess, like a last treat. And then they placed bags over their heads that caused them to die by asphyxiation, and I guess because from the phenobarbital and the vodka,

[00:07:43] Heidi: Oh, they fell asleep and then,

[00:07:45] Jane: fell asleep and then just, like, asph- that's awful

[00:07:48] Etienne: Wow

[00:07:50] Heidi: That's a terrible way to go.

[00:07:51] Jane: It is. But they

[00:07:53] Etienne: Wait, wasn't there that movie with Kevin Spacey where he 

[00:07:56] Heidi: The guy that, that... Yeah. And Laura Linney was in it too,

[00:08:01] Etienne: Yeah. Or yeah. But was she the one that committed suicide or in the movie? Yeah, one of them commits suicide in the movie, and they film it so they can prove that they did it on their own, that

[00:08:12] Heidi: Yeah. And nobody else, but somebody is put in on death row, right? 'Cause they're trying to show the fallacy or, you know, that death row should be

[00:08:21] Etienne: Yeah, that, death row should not be a real thing because

[00:08:24] Heidi: 'Cause people get wrongfully accused and convicted,

[00:08:28] Jane: of David Gale. 

[00:08:30] Heidi: Yeah.

[00:08:30] Etienne: Right. That's it. Exactly. Yeah. I think she kills herself, yeah. Yes, 'cause they wait till the very... I'm sorry, we're giving

[00:08:37] Heidi: Very end, yeah.

[00:08:38] Etienne: This is like

[00:08:38] Heidi: Showing you what 

[00:08:39] Jane: on a true story, isn't it? Oh, it's not a true story. Nope, it's not a true story. it's a fictional psychological thriller written by Charles Randolph.

[00:08:49] Etienne: Jesus. Yeah. Yeah, I think they wait till the very end of the movie to show you the video and you're like, "Holy fucking shit," you know? To see her killing herself.

[00:08:57] Jane: This sounds disturbing.

[00:08:59] Heidi: Yeah. It,

[00:09:00] Jane: not, I mean, all

[00:09:01] Etienne: remembering that. I don't remember the whole movie, I remember that scene. Like

[00:09:04] Heidi: Yum-yum

[00:09:06] Etienne: it is disturbing

[00:09:07] Jane: Just like I remember the Heaven's Gate- well, it's a thrill though, the Nikes. I just remember that, seeing that

[00:09:11] Etienne: the purple Nikes. I feel like I had, I think I had purple Nikes or the purple swish, the swoosh or whatever, when everybody was getting them. When I saw Jordache jeans with colored stitching, I also had the Nikes I think with the purple swoosh on it.

[00:09:25] Jane: I 100% had all purple Nikes when I was in fifth grade. I don't know why. That was just, that was the time. I did not, however, have applesauce, phenobarbital, and vodka, and I didn't do any of these other things.

[00:09:38] Etienne: put a bag over my head. Yeah.

[00:09:40] Jane: No

[00:09:41] Heidi: have you guys watched the new cult documentary

[00:09:44] Jane: Is it Trust Me? I just did. I watched it in preparation for this

[00:09:49] Etienne: No, wait, why didn't you tell me? I could've watched it. Shit

[00:09:52] Jane: on-- I honestly it wasn't like, "Oh, let me do homework for this." It just kinda happened, um, organically last

[00:09:58] Heidi: Someone told me to watch it

[00:09:59] Jane: and so "Trust Me" is on Netflix, and it is a documentary about the fundamentalist Latter-day Saint sect on the border of Utah and Arizona. 

[00:10:08] Jane: And, it was like, whoa. It did involve sex crimes, and some of them were with minors. It was very disturbing, but a very well-done documentary. This woman who is a former member of the fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I wanna make the distinction because I do have very close friends who are LDS that's very different from FLDS. Yes, very different.

[00:10:32] Heidi: But there's a lot of people who consider the general Mormon church as cults. They have culty behavior. There's people that... I'm friends with people that got out of the church, and it was very difficult for them to get out, and they call it a cult now. 

[00:10:47] Jane: Are you sure it wasn't FLDS? 'Cause I know people who were LDS and they're like

[00:10:51] Heidi: There's so many that have gotten out and now call it a cult because 

[00:10:56] Etienne: Well, don't they try to do the thing where you're gonna lose your entire family 

[00:10:59] Heidi: Yes. No, they're cut off. It, it's very Scientology-esque. Like they, they cut you off. They cover up crimes. There's so many crimes that are being committed.

[00:11:11] Etienne: Oh my goodness

[00:11:12] Heidi: and but they're doing it to each other. It's crazy. Yeah. Yeah. So them, the Jehovah's Witnesses, there's a bunch of people that I'm, I'm friends with that got out of that and now call it a cult because they were cut off and they isolate you and

[00:11:29] Etienne: Yeah, anything that tries to isolate you, I'm feeling like something bad is happening, you know? And so when they tell you, " Don't talk to so-and-so," like, "They're not part of this," or s- you know what I mean? You gotta start questioning what is the motivation here? Like, why don't you want me to talk to anybody else?

[00:11:42] Jane: And why are you isolating people from others? That just seems, like anytime there's layers of secrecy involved, it's like, well, why do you need the secrecy and what are you covering up and who are you protecting? Who are you enabling? But with this secrecy and isolation, it's very dysfunctional.

[00:11:58] Jane: So, I get it. When I was growing up, I heard from, I think it was my uncle who was like, "Yeah, the only definition or like difference between a religion and a cult is like with the cult, the person that everybody's worshiping is still alive." And I was like, "Oh, okay."

[00:12:11] Etienne: Oh, that's great. What a great definition.

[00:12:14] Jane: Was, I was young and I was just thinking like, "Noted." So anytime people-- 'Cause in college there were times where people like, "You should come, come to this meeting," and, "This guy is so great and he's so vibe." And it bordered on like some kind of idolatry, I just remembered those words in my head. I'm like, "The person's still alive. This could be a cult. Don't go. Go away."

[00:12:34] Etienne: That is such good advice.

[00:12:36] Jane: have followed that rule, 'cause it's come up many times.

[00:12:40] Heidi: Yeah. There's, there's-- 

[00:12:44] Heidi: Okay, so there's a list I have. It's from the Cult Education Institute. These are specific warning signs to look out for. So, there's absolute authoritarianism without accountability, zero tolerance for criticism or questions, lack of meaningful financial disclosure.

[00:12:58] Etienne: Hmm.

[00:12:59] Heidi: There's unreasonable fears about the outside world. That's conspiracies or us versus them. That's kinda where the isolationism comes up. There's a belief that former followers are always wrong for leaving. There's never a legitimate reason for anyone else to leave. There's abuse of members, records, books, articles, or programs documenting the abuse of the leader or group.

[00:13:23] Heidi: So, go out there and search a group before you join it. Followers feeling that they are never able to be good enough, a belief that the leader is right at all times, and a belief that the leader is the exclusive means of knowing truth or giving validation. And then there's all these stages of the life cycle of a cult, and the big idea, love bombing.

[00:13:46] Jane: Oh, it always starts out good. 

[00:13:48] Heidi: I mean, the way that the stuff that they have in here, it's just like a narcissistic abuse.

[00:13:53] Etienne: Yeah, sounds just like it. 

[00:13:54] Heidi: and a lot of people when I was making the connections, a lot of people say, "Yeah." And when you're in a narcissistic, abusive relationship, they call it a cult of two, because it is very culty.

[00:14:06] Heidi: Like, they isolate you, they break you down, and you kind of see them as your personal guru, you know? 

[00:14:14] Etienne: Yeah

[00:14:15] Heidi: yeah. So, I was almost in a cult. I almost started one. So, I was friends with a woman, and we were all social friends, and we were like, "Hey, let's make this new cool church that we can all go to that will be like, community thing and have matriarchal societal values."

[00:14:36] Heidi: And, let's make this women-led and get around the tax laws and stuff 'cause a lot of people are doing that now, like making their own churches. You only need like three people to join you. So we had very noble intentions and vision for this.

[00:14:53] Heidi: But I got involved with this woman, and it turned into something horrible. I didn't know it was until I got out. She was writing a Bible and kinda thinking she's the second coming 

[00:15:06] Jane: Did she call it a Bible? Was that the phrase? 

[00:15:08] Heidi: Yeah, she calls it a bible. Mm-hmm. Yep, she was writing verses. I saw the red flags. Some of these verses were becoming, like, her rants on all the people that have done her wrong in her life.

[00:15:19] Heidi: And so I kinda started seeing, like, all right, this isn't going the way I thought, I originally had thought. And, but yeah, the love bombing in the beginning, and then isolation that was going on, and just when you're so in it, like, the abuse that was going on, I just didn't recognize it until I got out.

[00:15:39] Heidi: So now that... I mean, that was only a couple weeks of this experience of it being abusive and getting out. So now I know. Like, I used to think, "Oh, I'm so smart. I would recognize a cult, and would never join one." But Jesus, now I see how easy it is to get swept up in something like that.

[00:15:59] Etienne: Well, I think it's different in this way too, because you were there at the very beginning of the cult starting. So 

[00:16:04] Heidi: Yeah. 

[00:16:04] Etienne: that's different

[00:16:05] Heidi: But I see her, she's putting the Bible out there. She's trying to get people. She was talking about how she's gonna make money off this. Like, how it went, I was just not on board with a lot of the stuff. I was like, "No, no, no. I'm, I'm..." Yeah. It's getting very culty. So, yeah, we'll see if she keeps going with this and starts a real cult.

[00:16:23] Heidi: I hope not. I don't know. She's very charming and very charismatic, and, the few people that were in my orbit that met her were taken with her. So I'm just like, "Uh, I don't know." Yeah. It's crazy.

[00:16:37] Jane: It's hard 'cause I, every time I've read or heard about a cult, like in the beginning it always sounds, it's exciting and the people who are a part of it feel like they're a part of something. Especially if they have like a rough background and their family ties aren't really strong, and they're just ripe for that kind of thing 'cause they're vulnerable to it and they're just like, "Well, here I belong, and all these people align with my values."

[00:16:56] Jane: And maybe it also starts off with you're doing good. You're like, "Oh, this is a community service type thing," and you're just thinking, "This is a club, not a cult." And then it just starts morphing. 

[00:17:06] Heidi: Well, even the Jim Jones group, they were doing good works. When they were in America, that's why people joined it, 'cause they were just like, "Wow, this is great. They're loving each other. It's a real community." But, it went dark once they went to Guyana

[00:17:20] Jane: Well, that was the thing. You needed to isolate everybody and, and even take them out of the jurisdiction of US law. 

[00:17:26] Heidi: Well, everything I read said that most cult leaders don't go into it thinking they're gonna be a cult leader. They really do go in with good intentions a lot of times. But then the power dynamic 

[00:17:38] Etienne: I was gonna say power hunger. We're like, "Ooh, this is nice."

[00:17:43] Heidi: The power, once they experience the money, the access, the control. It's a control thing, too.

[00:17:50] Jane: And if they see that because they're being laden with all of this adulation, they're like, "Oh, impunity might come with this. Maybe I could start entertaining some of these impulses I have because these people trust me." 

[00:18:04] Jane: Like, that's what happened, like back to "Trust Me," that documentary. It didn't start off as a culty thing.

[00:18:08] Jane: It was just actually someone who was on the outs of the FLDS community. Yes. And then he didn't have a lot of status in that community, and he started making his own rules kind of in another satellite community, if you will, and had a couple of women who trusted him, who were gonna be his wives, and then he started accumulating more.

[00:18:31] Jane: It was like he had quite the harem going. And then that's when he started entertaining his darker impulses. He's like, "I think..." And when he had male followers and he convinced them to give him their wives, and then their children, and their underaged female children. So that's when it took a dark turn.

[00:18:50] Jane: So if you already have like, some deep dark thing, right? And now you have a group of people around you who are blindly following you and you're drunk on that power, you've got some darkness in you, that's when it's gonna come out, and you're thinking like, "Oh, I will be able to-" enact these fantasies with this group with utter impunity.

[00:19:08] Jane: And you see that happen with so many of these different cults, and it's, really sad. I would argue, I also... You see that happen with like, I mean, I wouldn't call the Catholic Church a cult, but boy, do you see culty aspects, right? In those types of, the power of the abuse , that happens.

[00:19:26] Jane: But I think that you could argue that in any kind of institution that has a uneven power dynamic, that can happen. But a cult is like, okay, we have an uneven power dynamic, and we're also isolated outside of the purview of prying eyes that could report to authorities that would have some jurisdiction on the matter, you know?

[00:19:46] Jane: And I think that's where you see the danger. And I guess I'm always on the lookout because I realize now as an adult that people were trying to recruit me to various things like that when I was in college, and I flagged it immediately. I was like, "Nope, your person's still alive and we're not down with that." And I was like, "Moving on," you know? And, I just, I don't know. I've seen several people close to me get pulled into things like that, and I guess it's on my radar. 

[00:20:10] Jane: And even when I wanted to go on this yoga and meditation retreat, and what I'm about to say actually is like a free advertisement for the Art of Living in Boone, North Carolina. It's a lovely place. It is not a cult. Not a cult. When I first Googled it, right, my husband and I were really frazzled and we just needed to go away for the weekend and just be, and he was like, "What do you wanna do?" And I'm like, "I literally just wanna go to the mountains and do yoga and meditate and eat healthy food to just be."

[00:20:34] Jane: So I literally Googled yoga meditation retreat in the Blue Ridge Mountains 'cause I just wanted it to also not be too far away to drive. I wanted to go now. And that's what came up when I Googled it. But before I booked it, 'cause I was reading it, I'm like, all right, who is this person who heads this organization, Sri Sri Ravi Shankar? I'm gonna just do a quick little Google 

[00:20:53] Heidi: Yeah. 

[00:20:54] Jane: Here of 

[00:20:55] Heidi: legit

[00:20:56] Jane: Oh, I did. I s- I Googled his name and then put other terrible phrases after it to see if anything came up, you know? I Googled it straight, and then I Googled his name with other phrases, and nothing. Nothing comes up, and it was just all about the wonderful work that he's done and people are not worshiping him.

[00:21:15] Jane: People are just like coming there to learn his brand of yoga, I guess, if you will, and like breathing techniques. And he actually parted ways with the Yogi Maharishi, who was known for sex scandals and also famous for being the transcendental meditation teacher for The Beatles. And so I was just happy to see that he was like, "Oh, uh, no. We don't wanna, we're not associated any longer." And

[00:21:39] Etienne: also, I didn't know that that guy had become somebody not good.

[00:21:43] Jane: Yeah, it was terrible.

[00:21:44] Etienne: Sorry, I don't know why, like suddenly can't find the words. 

[00:21:47] Jane: Yeah, It's very-- It's sad, but 

[00:21:50] Etienne: Oh, no. Damn. Okay. Yeah, again, probably the power thing, right? Like, uh, and men, how about this? I mean, yes, this is odd that we have a female cult leader here with

[00:22:01] Heidi: No, there's plenty of, there's 

[00:22:02] Etienne: not that odd?

[00:22:03] Heidi: plenty of women. 

[00:22:04] Heidi: There's a skinny, like a starvation Christian 

[00:22:08] Etienne: no. Oh n- oh, yes. I saw that, I

[00:22:11] Jane: Wait, was that the lady who's like, "I'm 

[00:22:12] Etienne: With the crazy hair? 

[00:22:14] Heidi: Yeah, Yeah, kind of. Like, well, she just thought that overeating was against God and so they had strict diets for their followers. And yeah, I was listening to an interview with, I think her son is out, and he was just talking to somebody about the cult and how damaging it was to people and

[00:22:33] Etienne: Well, I can only imagine how... You're giving them all eating disorders. Like,

[00:22:36] Heidi: And then Wild Country is another- yeah, yeah, that even though it was like a guy at the top, it was

[00:22:43] Heidi: the, 

[00:22:44] Etienne: Oh, it's definitely that woman yeah, 

[00:22:46] Heidi: all the poison, the community and stuff, so,

[00:22:49] Etienne: And I watched that whole NXIVM one too. There was the NXIVM docuseries about that sex scandal. And yeah, I mean, there was the main man guy, but there was definitely women who were just below him who were helping everything just get really fucked up faster. You know what I mean? Like,

[00:23:04] Heidi: But I think they were so brainwashed, you know? Did you watch the NXIVM, uh, documentary? No? it's, it's it's so crazy. He was branding them with his initials, but it was like on the side so nobody knew what the symbol was, but somebody finally saw it from the side and figured out it was his initials, and he'd been branding people. And it was a cult within the cult. Like there was a special group that was part of the 

[00:23:34] Etienne: it was like a sales thing, wasn't it? Wasn't it like it was like a MLM type thing and then it became a cult? Wasn't that what it was?

[00:23:41] Heidi: kind of Scientology-esque 'cause they had workshops and 

[00:23:45] Etienne: Oh, workshops 

[00:23:46] Jane: wait. I totally know about this. I could think about was the 

[00:23:50] Etienne: It was actually in New York, wasn't it? Was it actually in New York? 

[00:23:52] Jane: Yes, it was in New York. And I thought that this was-- I've seen it written down and never heard anybody say it out loud, so all I could think about was, like, the proton pump inhibitor drug, like the NXIVM. was like, "Wait, what?" Now I know what you're talking about. Okay.

[00:24:07] Etienne: N-X, uh, yeah, they skip the E. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

[00:24:11] Jane: It started as a self-help thing, and executive success programs, and then they were just all kinds of weird stuff. Yeah, the guy who led that was convicted of racketeering and all kinds of sex

[00:24:23] Etienne: Not even hot. Like, when you look at him you're

[00:24:26] Jane: Oh, I don't know what he

[00:24:26] Etienne: How do you get these people to become, like, a sex cult when you don't even have a hot guy at the..." You know what I

[00:24:31] Jane: Well, don't watch Trust Me, 'cause that guy is also not hot. 

[00:24:35] Heidi: he's- 

[00:24:35] Etienne: Not hot

[00:24:38] Jane: Homely 

[00:24:39] Heidi: Yeah, very homely and just... Him in that leather, that white leather jacket and doing the video. 

[00:24:45] Jane: A 

[00:24:45] Heidi: you gotta watch this. It is insane. Cause I love the woman who infiltrated and was videotaping all of this, and had to pretend to be his friend

[00:24:56] Etienne: Oof

[00:24:56] Heidi: to keep getting evidence so that the cops would finally do something about it. She had to remain his friend after he admitted to forcing his male members to have sex with the minors. 

[00:25:09] Jane: While he was in the room. 

[00:25:10] Etienne: Oh God, 

[00:25:11] Heidi: watching, 

[00:25:12] Etienne: Mm-mm. No. 

[00:25:13] Heidi: Told him to do this. Um, but I think it was blackmail. I think it was blackmail material. That's why he...

[00:25:19] Etienne: them do it too? Was he filming? 

[00:25:21] Heidi: Filming, but it, like, it's done, and now I've got this on you. Yeah. He's...

[00:25:28] Etienne: Uh, people

[00:25:28] Heidi: It's a wild documentary. But yeah, once he admitted that to her in this, um... Like, she had secretly taped it. Once she figured out what he was confessing, she was taping it without his knowledge. She thought, you know, "Hey, cops, do something about it." And they were like, "No, this isn't enough for us to get a search warrant." So she had to keep the ruse up for, like, a year, right? It was, like,

[00:25:51] Jane: Yeah. It was a year because... And then she got the FBI involved, and they told her, because she and her husband were do- documentarians, she just felt like she wanted to a- in earnest, because she was former FLDS, like tell the story of what it was like to be FLDS from a more objective lens and say, like, you know, "This is a belonging and a community that these people have, so let's try really hard not to be judgmental and see what it is like to be them."

[00:26:17] Jane: And she earned their trust, but then she saw that this other tangential group was happening, that that guy was starting to form. Because what happened was the prophet, the guy, the leader of the FLDS, um, group that was in that part of Utah on the border of Arizona was in prison, and from prison, he was telling everybody, like, "You can't have sex anymore.

[00:26:38] Jane: No more babies can be born." And, so they were all just like, "Okay," and they following it blindly. And s- she was documenting that and talking with them, and then learned about this other guy who was saying like, "Actually, we can start having sex again and then

[00:26:53] Heidi: Cause he was saying that Warren Jeffs was dead because they hadn't heard from their prophet in like five years or something like that. He's, he'd gone insane apparently, or he's dead, I don't know. But this guy is telling all the members, "He's actually dead. They're lying to us, but I'm channeling him, and what I say is gospel. I'm the new prophet." And they all believed him 'cause they wanted to start having sex again and having babies. So

[00:27:18] Etienne: I'm like, Whatever you say so we

[00:27:19] Heidi: for a way towards, you know, like, "Hey, let's start having sex again 'cause we haven't heard from our prophet in forever." So people clung onto that, and he went to town with it and was abusing these people. It was horrific

[00:27:33] Etienne: Well, and I have to watch this.

[00:27:35] Heidi: Yeah, it's really, it's... 'Cause you'll love the woman who's infiltrating it. And I don't think she was part of the FLDS. 

[00:27:43] Jane: It was part of a different cult then 

[00:27:45] Heidi: He was Mormon, but he was doing his own thing, and sex trafficking her. He broke her down so much that she was- Oh, yeah. Yep.

[00:27:57] Etienne: Wait, the lady who infiltrated them? He was sex trafficking her? 

[00:28:00] Heidi: Yeah, so he was

[00:28:01] Jane: Well, no, she had been sex trafficked by her former partner and was able to break free of that, so she was very much, And also to, she was sympathetic to people who then fall victim to that kind of mentality because it had happened to her, and they had isolated her from her family, like even from her children at the time. And she just said, "Wow, this could happen to me." She just could understand how this could happen to other people, and she just wanted us to have more compassion for people that end up adopting that mindset and become part of communities like that. And so that was her lens as a documentarian. Like, "Hey, let's not judge these people for being gullible. Let's have compassion for them because they were vulnerable." 

[00:28:40] Etienne: Oh God, I would never feel bad. I mean, I would never feel bad against somebody who was part of a cult. I would just feel terrible for them that they got under the spell of somebody or many people, you know?

[00:28:49] Heidi: Yep, yeah. It's a really good documentary and empowering too, 'cause, uh, even the women who decided to go against this guy and was, like, working with the FBI, they're still in the original sect. They're still part of that religious organization. But it was kinda cool to see these women take their power back, and I'm like, "Yes. Flip the script, ladies. You don't have to..." Yeah, so I'm hopeful, 'cause there was a couple of badass women that spoke in the documentary, and I was like, "Oh, if these women could be in charge instead of these yucky men that just wanna have sex with children." 

[00:29:27] Etienne: Children? Yeah. Jesus Christ.

[00:29:30] Jane: Yeah, it's, uh 

[00:29:31] Etienne: Special pl- I, again, I hope there's a hell 'cause there's a special place for these people waiting for them. Oh my God. 

[00:29:41] Etienne: Well, did you guys ever watch "Big Love" on Showti- I think it was Showtime with Bill Paxton. That s- that series was on forever, and I think it is like they're LDS, but they're a separate faction of LDS where they are...

[00:29:54] Heidi: It's kinda like a sister wives group, where they're like a offshoot of the Mormon church, but they're... So they're polygamy,

[00:30:02] Etienne: Yeah, exactly. 

[00:30:03] Heidi: practicing polygamy. Yeah, 

[00:30:04] Etienne: And they definitely have their own separate leader that is controlling them. Yeah. Yeah, that was a good series 

[00:30:11] Jane: The whole allowing polygamy thing is just so strange. I mean, listen, if it is consensual polyamory, then that's fine. But the story that I had read about how polygamy started and the core LDS church hasn't practiced polygamy or sanctioned it in over 100 years. But, the way that it started, the story that I read years ago, and I can't remember the source where I read this, but that it was that the founder of the church was caught cheating on his wife, and he was just like, you know, "Well, you know, God told me," and then so I was like, "Oh 

[00:30:38] Etienne: Oh, no. 

[00:30:40] Heidi: wife. Yeah. 

[00:30:41] Etienne: is just an excuse? 

[00:30:42] Heidi: Oh, yeah. He was awful. I've read about this guy too, and how he created an entire religion that's still going today I have no idea, 'cause

[00:30:51] Etienne: Oh my God, 

[00:30:52] Heidi: it's very sketchy, the origin story 

[00:30:55] Jane: It is. Like looking in the hat and then seeing things in that for like, again, like I've had very close friends over the years who are members of the LDS church, so I get it. And we've got a lot,

[00:31:05] Heidi: sweet people 

[00:31:06] Etienne: Wait, do you have any friends that are still in LDS or are they former LDS? Oh,

[00:31:10] Jane: I still, yeah, current. But they're really cool. It's sweet. I mean, let me ask questions

[00:31:15] Etienne: I've only had friends who were former LDS, so they were all partying and drinking it up really hard 'cause they really you know, 'cause they didn't get to do that when they were in the church 

[00:31:25] Heidi: Yep, 

[00:31:25] Jane: a... so 

[00:31:26] Heidi: up for lost time. 

[00:31:28] Jane: when you were in California, Etty, did you ever come across like, 

[00:31:32] Etienne: Yeah, that's the only place I came across it. Yeah. There was a girl that I met who had just moved out from Utah to LA, and she was like, yeah, she wanted to be an actor. Pretty sure she got involved in like the local comedy group that I loved going to see. I was not a part of it.

[00:31:47] Etienne: I was just the audience member. I fucking loved that thing. But, yeah, she was a part of that, and we would always, after the shows, hang out and she'd be drinking, smoking, doing everything. And yeah, she was having such a good time. 

[00:32:02] Heidi: I lived in Utah for three years, and the bars there were just full of lapsed Mormons or people that were kinda going a little crazy and yeah, drinking, smoking, having all the sex. Like, they were so repressed that they were wild once they reached their 20s

[00:32:19] Etienne: I don't think she'd gotten into the sex part yet, but she was definitely heading that way I'm sure. 

[00:32:23] Heidi: Yeah. yeah. Yeah. But usually they go back. Like,

[00:32:29] Etienne: Oh God, what is this, 

[00:32:30] Heidi: ones that I 

[00:32:31] Etienne: really 

[00:32:32] Jane: I was 

[00:32:32] Etienne: this is

[00:32:32] Heidi: with, they 

[00:32:33] Jane: that. Oh my gosh, like Amish having their Rumspringa, like, right? Like they're, they're allowed to go and have their little devil walk or whatever, and then decide, do you wanna live with the English or do you wanna go back and can your own food and

[00:32:46] Etienne: Have no electricity.

[00:32:50] Jane: Listen, when the apocalypse arrives, there's just gonna be Amish people left, and I'm gonna be like, "Can you please teach me how to do these things that my generations have forgotten?" 

[00:32:59] Jane: But wait, so Heidi, you had said on a prior conversation that you felt like MLMs kind of border on cults, 

[00:33:08] Heidi: Oh yeah, Mary Kay. I went to a Mary Kay presentation. I had like an acquaintance that was part of it, and the entire thing just felt super culty. Like it was icky. You ask questions and they would kind of like paper, you know, just like... yeah, yeah. It was, 

[00:33:26] Etienne: Do not question me, okay? 

[00:33:27] Heidi: It was, I don't know, it was weird. Yeah, so I kinda feel like MLMs are lumped in there as well because they have the leader at the top and people keep going into it and Yeah, 

[00:33:40] Etienne: Yeah, they're all brainwashing each other. Isn't that what they're trying-- They're all just trying to brainwash everybody else so that they all are like, "We're gonna be so rich. We just have to get all these people under us." You know, like, we just have to bankrupt everybody, and then we'll all be rich." Like 

[00:33:56] Heidi: So predatory. Yeah. Yeah. And, I think there's more cult activity 'cause we've got political parties can be cults. When I was doing this research they're talking about political parties, religions, and they use the psychology, all these psychology things that we've discovered over the decades, and they're using that to get people and control them and prey on people.

[00:34:20] Etienne: Makes perfect sense.

[00:34:21] Heidi: Mm-hmm. 

[00:34:22] Etienne: Yeah. I mean, isn't that what it all comes down to? The control, so that the leaders can get what they're wanting 

[00:34:28] Heidi: yeah. Yeah, and during my research, I came across this one expert, think her name was Alexandria Stein, Dr. Alexandria, she wrote the book "Terror, Love and Brainwashing." But according to her, every major cult we know of, the leader has a first follower that sets a tone of the abuse pattern for all the rest. So it's like that first follower is like the domino, you know? And that first follower is often a sexual partner, but it can also sometimes be a parent or child 

[00:34:59] Etienne: Wait, Heidi, were you the first member of your, of the cult there? 

[00:35:04] Heidi: My would-be cult? Um, 

[00:35:06] Etienne: the cult of 

[00:35:07] Heidi: of. 'Cause, 'cause at first I was all in, 'cause I was like, yes, let's help bring down patriarchy. You know? It's not working for any of us, so we need to come up with something drastic and, I had belief in the good intentions. Well, the good intentions. Like, but once it started going off the rails, I was like, uh, I don't know. This is, mm. 

[00:35:28] Etienne: off the rails fast. Thank God it went off the rails fast. Do you know what that tells me? That just tells me that the person who is the leader of the cult is that crazy, because I feel like sh- if she was just a little less crazy, she could've gotten everybody to stay in it a little bit longer 

[00:35:43] Heidi: Yes. Yes. Yes. Um, yes. Yeah, I think there's, I think there's some AI psychosis going on, and so I don't think it's AI psychosis 'cause there's a lot of AI 

[00:35:57] Jane: did the AI tell her that she was Jesus?

[00:36:00] Heidi: Oh, 

[00:36:00] Etienne: Oh,

[00:36:01] Jane: Oh,

[00:36:02] Heidi: it would... 

[00:36:02] Jane: I was joking. Oh, No, 

[00:36:04] Heidi: no. She was feeding stuff into it and the AI was like, " Yes, y- you're onto some-"

[00:36:09] Etienne: But the AI's 

[00:36:09] Heidi: like it was 

[00:36:10] Etienne: gonna say that. That, does she not understand? That's what, I mean, w- I guess if you're, if the AI is talking to a crazy person, they're gonna be like, "You're right, I am Jesus. Thank you for pointing that out, Chat GPT." 

[00:36:23] Heidi: I am the chosen one. 

[00:36:25] Jane: the sycophant, the sycophancy in the, uh, the LLM models. Oh, wow 

[00:36:29] Heidi: Yep, yep. So I think it's the mental illness is like so over the edge that I don't think there is any way that it's gonna become a cult, but I don't know. I'm keeping a watch on it. I will be warning people, like, "don't, don't, join this thing." 

[00:36:46] Jane: You're on cult watch. 

[00:36:47] Heidi: I am gonna be on cult 

[00:36:48] Etienne: Stay away from this cult.

[00:36:50] Heidi: I don't wanna 

[00:36:51] Etienne: watch. 

[00:36:52] Heidi: like, 

[00:36:52] Etienne: Heidi might have to go back in and infiltrate and take video and then expose.

[00:36:56] Jane: That'll be your Netflix documentary 

[00:36:58] Heidi: yeah. Well, that's what I, after getting out, I was like, "Oh my God, I was almost a part of a Netflix 

[00:37:05] Etienne: Yeah, but she's probably so crazy she would actually believe that you were like, "Oh, I- you're right. I don't know what I was thinking when I left. I should have never left. I 100%... I've had dreams. I keep having these dreams where I see you on the cross, but then, you know, like, they take you down because they don't wanna crucify you. They want you to live. You need to be leading everything here. This is how it needs to 

[00:37:27] Jane: Yeah, then she could be-- she might get onto you and then she'll be like, " chat GPT told me that you're Judas Iscariot reincarnated," so

[00:37:34] Heidi: I think I am Judas at this point, you know? 'Cause she I don't know, got some crazy idea that I was, like, faking my spirituality and that I couldn't be trusted, and she fed that into AI, and it spit it back like, "Yeah, you're right." 

[00:37:50] Heidi: So yeah. But I'm grateful that however I got out, like, thank God. 'Cause I was being brainwashed. It was happening. I was in it. Even though I could see all the red flags once I got out of it and could, like, reflect back on everything. But while you're in it and, like, sleep-deprived, it's hard to explain how it was unfolding, but now

[00:38:13] Etienne: Well, wait, what tipped you over the edge to get out or to realize what was wrong?

[00:38:18] Heidi: Well, you guys know, like my foot broke and so I'm back in my apartment by myself reflecting and it was my time away. And I think that's the lesson here is anytime you're starting with a new group or anything, have some outside people. You know, talk to them, tell them what's going on. Like have some time away from this very intense situation to reflect and make sure, okay, is this healthy?

[00:38:44] Heidi: Is this actually healthy? 'Cause once I had some time to really reflect, I realized that, oh shit, this is so abusive. This is... I was being gaslit, like the love bombing. It was so... It was the actions of a narcissist.

[00:38:59] Etienne: Mm-hmm 

[00:38:59] Heidi: it lined up. 

[00:39:00] Jane: So- that list that you had at the beginning, I think that it could apply to... Yeah, it's to cults, it's narcissistic relationships. I think that that's a good checklist to have as you embark on any new relationship almost like, "Hey." And what you just said I think is super helpful, like when you first go headlong into joining any kind of group or when you're first headlong into a relationship to still stay grounded with the people who know you, who know the core personality that you've developed and shared that's true so that if you're going off the rails but you still have contact with them, they can reground you and be like, "Hey. Hey, Heidi. You used to not always wear like, you know, pink," 

[00:39:40] Etienne: only purple. 

[00:39:41] Heidi: purple.

[00:39:42] Jane: Like, "Where'd those Nikes come from?" And 

[00:39:44] Heidi: And you're talking a lot, awful lot about Halley's Comet 

[00:39:48] Jane: Yeah. But 

[00:39:51] Etienne: And the alien riding it

[00:39:53] Jane: But also, even if you're in a relationship and you're just so, like you said, being love bombed and you're just in it, and you said like a cult of two, right? For, with a narcissist, that you need to still have that outside contact so that your friends can be like, "Hey, you know, you really love XYZ and you haven't done that in a while."

[00:40:10] Jane: Or, you know, just to kind of reel it in so that the person gains perspective so they can realize, "Oh no, I might be in a cult."

[00:40:19] Heidi: Yes. And I, I've got my friend Megan just got out of... she was in a brief narcissistic relationship, and so she's kind of trying to get herself back to, you know, or she's pretty much back, but we both recognize, like, how we can fall for that stuff. And so we're gonna be each other's accountability buddies. Like, like, turn 

[00:40:40] Etienne: Yeah. So please tell me if 

[00:40:41] Heidi: this normal?" 

[00:40:41] Etienne: I'm, falling for a narcissist. Am I, 

[00:40:43] Heidi: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:40:44] Etienne: to like 

[00:40:46] Heidi: Yeah. The outside person that's gonna be like, "Oh, this isn't healthy." So. 

[00:40:52] Etienne: this seems like a 

[00:40:53] Jane: Yes. This is why I think it's also good to have multiple friend groups, right? So, that you know, when one friend group might be turning into a cult, you need the other friend group to tell you like, "Hey man," like, 

[00:41:07] Heidi: Yeah "

[00:41:07] Jane: I think you might wanna..." 

[00:41:08] Heidi: But that's why cults, like, they do the isolation thing, you know, turn you against your parents and your friends. And so, so yeah. Well, that happens. Have people telling you what's real 

[00:41:23] Jane: That's why you need to be outside of all echo chambers online and in person. Like, don't be in any echo chamber whatsoever because apparently, yeah, it could turn into a cult

[00:41:33] Heidi: But it's wild. Like, I've seen that charismatic, charming personality and how easy it is to fall for it, you know? And I always thought I would be too smart, and now I know I'm not 

[00:41:45] Etienne: Honestly, if she had been 10 years younger, she might have actually kept you around longer. She wouldn't have shown her crazy so fast. But she was older, she showed her crazy super fast. 

[00:41:53] Jane: That should be another little side quest we go on research-wise. Are members of Gen X, like our bullshit meter might be a little bit more refined since we had to develop them young, so many of us were kind of half feral children that were just like, "Wait a second. Nope, nope, nope. I'm not taking candy from strangers."

[00:42:11] Etienne: Yeah.

[00:42:11] Heidi: Yeah, 

[00:42:12] Jane: I have a little... yes, exactly. Like I have a little bit more grit. I don't wanna be the kid on the milk carton. My parents don't know where I am, and it's 10:00 PM, and so therefore, I'm not going to trust you and follow you blindly. And just I think that's the lesson. Just don't drink the 

[00:42:28] Heidi: I was pushing back on some things, like when she called Jesus the original yoga bro, I was like, "Hmm, that's not the jesus I 

[00:42:36] Etienne: the original yoga bro? 

[00:42:38] Heidi: Yeah. she she said she was channeling him, and he was, like, saying how he's the one that screwed up, you know, the everything everything yeah. 

[00:42:48] Etienne: Oh, no. We're saying 'cause he was a man? 

[00:42:50] Jane: Wait, he said that jesus screwed things up? 

[00:42:53] Heidi: Yeah, she was claiming that Jesus was coming through her and Jesus was like, "It's all my fault. I went too f- I went too forceful," you know? "I screwed it up for the women." 

[00:43:04] Jane: I'm like, I'm not even deeply 

[00:43:06] Heidi: I'll send you guys... I got 

[00:43:07] Jane: major issues with this. ' I'd be like,

[00:43:09] Heidi: Oh, me too. Yeah. 'Cause I'm like, I have a relationship with Jesus, Buddha, like all of them, and I have never felt that way. Like, I

[00:43:18] Etienne: No no 

[00:43:20] Heidi: No, jesus is a 

[00:43:21] Jane: And so he's like, "They didn't screw it up. People interpreting things screwed it up." And they also 

[00:43:26] Etienne: Exactly. Yes, that's what I

[00:43:28] Jane: Yeah. And, then they hid some of the other stuff that was a lot more like egalitarian. They're like, "Oh, we're just not we're not gonna put that in the real book." Anyway. 

[00:43:35] Etienne: just like, "Pssh, we're just gonna cut that out," Yeah. 

[00:43:38] Jane: Heavily 

[00:43:39] Heidi: Yeah. So, I mean, there was a lot of things I pushed back on, and I think that's probably why I got booted out so quickly 'cause I was pushing back on some things

[00:43:48] Etienne: That's not allowed. You're not supposed to question. That's p- 

[00:43:50] Heidi: No. Yeah. 

[00:43:52] Etienne: the leader 

[00:43:53] Jane: I 

[00:43:53] Heidi: So I didn't pass the snuff test for first 

[00:43:56] Jane: That, yes, I was gonna say that's your badge of honor. We need to get you a pin that says, "I was kicked out of a cult." Like, and then you just like, no, like that's your independent thinker badge. 

[00:44:08] Heidi: And that's our show. You've been listening to The Women Are Plotting. If you have a story you'd like to share or have any comments, we'd love to hear from you. Email us at info@thewomenareplotting.com. And of course, you can find us on all the socials. Thanks, and until next time, be safe and be excellent to each other