Sunscreen, Botox, & Aging Gracefully

Aging gracefully sounds simple until you’re staring at a mirror, a sunscreen bottle, and a menu of “quick fixes” that all promise confidence. We get honest about what actually helps, what scares us, and what feels worth it, starting with the most unforgettable skincare lesson imaginable: a family melanoma warning that turned sunscreen into a lifelong habit. If you’ve ever skipped SPF, wondered whether “anti-aging” is even the right goal, or felt pressure to change your face to keep up, you’ll feel seen here. 

We dig into everyday skin aging and photoaging with practical clarity and talk real-world routines that make sun protection doable. Along the way, we swap stories that make sunscreen non-negotiable. 

Then we move into the complicated middle ground of cosmetic procedures: the history of facelifts, Botox, and how easily it can go sideways. We also share a sobering cautionary story about laser skin resurfacing, complications, and why “cheap” and “safe” do not belong in the same sentence when someone is literally burning layers of your skin. The bigger question underneath it all is identity: how do you care for your appearance without losing the version of you that people recognize, including you? 

We end with the most human part of aging well: habits that support longevity and self-respect. Think movement, stretching, real food, staying curious, and even embracing your inner neighborhood guardian when something actually matters. If this conversation helped you, subscribe, share it with a friend who needs a calmer take on aging, and leave us a review. What’s one aging habit you’re keeping no matter what?

Email us at info@thewomenareplotting.com, and find us on all the socials. Be safe and be excellent to each other.

Transcript

[00:00:00] Jane: So some people get care packages from their grandparents that are full of like, I don't know, chocolates and, 

[00:00:07] Heidi: Snacks. 

[00:00:07] Jane: toys. Oh no, my grandparents used to send us care packages that had Polaroids of him getting the cancer scooped out of him within bottles of sunscreen, and he would just say, "Love you lots. Don't forget your sunscreen." And it was fucking scarring. So I was just like, "Yeah, yeah." And so I never... i was just like, "I'm wearing this all the time." Now, did I mess up a few times when I was young and forgot and/or didn't reapply after I was swimming and that type of thing? And I did sustain a couple of bad burns as a kid, but it wasn't for lack of trying to not have that happen to me. 

[00:00:40] Etienne: Welcome listeners. This is Women Are Plotting. I'm Etienne Rose Olivier, and I'm here with my friends and co-hosts, Heidi Willis and Jane Gari.

[00:00:55] Etienne: On today's episode, we're gonna be talking about aging gracefully. 

[00:01:03] Etienne: And my fun or interesting fact for today, because this is what I'm gonna be harping on in the entire episode, is that sunscreen keeps you from aging by protecting your skin from ultraviolet radiation, which causes over 90% of premature visible skin aging.

[00:01:16] Etienne: It prevents the breakdown of collagen and elastin, reduces hyperpigmentation, which is what we also know as age spots, and it shields DNA from damage that causes wrinkles and sagging. So you should wear your sunscreen every, every single day. Clouds or not. Clouds or not, wear your sunscreen.

[00:01:39] Heidi: And don't sit in

[00:01:40] Etienne: God, yes. I'm so sorry. I should not... I think that kind of goes along. Unless you're gonna wear sunscreen and go in the tanning bed, that makes no sense.

[00:01:48] Heidi: Uh, no. Exactly.

[00:01:49] Etienne: All right, Heidi, you were gonna give us a fun or interesting fact.

[00:01:54] Heidi: I went into the history of facelifts, and the very first recorded one was in 1901 by Berlin surgeon Eugen Hollander. But I guess the early 20th century techniques focused only on skin tightening, often creating a windswept look. We've all seen that, right? Until the 1960s and '70s when they introduced a new technique that repositioned deeper muscle tissues along with the skin, so created a more natural look. But yeah.

[00:02:25] Etienne: natural. I'm using air quotes there.

[00:02:29] Heidi: Yeah, and also, it really became popular after World War I, when they were reconstructing service members who were coming back disfigured, and so their techniques improved, and so, it really took off after World War I.

[00:02:41] Etienne: That makes sense. I like that. Okay. Actually, I would like to see a picture of that very first facelift, though. That very, very first one. I wanna see what the results were, like before and after pictures on that, which probably don't exist, but yeah, that would be great.

[00:02:54] Heidi: Who knows? Hmm.

[00:02:56] Jane: Yeah, it's just so prevalent, some of these procedures now. So I was looking into, okay, it feels like so many people around me are getting them that I looked up, okay, how many are not getting them?

[00:03:07] Etienne: Oh, no. Nobody's not done

[00:03:11] Jane: Yeah, because I haven't and I don't plan to currently, and so I was just wondering, all right, am I now in the minority for my age group? But then I just looked and it was an aggregate for like several surveys that I looked at that about between 65 and 75% of women over 40 have never had cosmetic injections. So let's split the difference and say 70% over 40 haven't done anything. And a growing number of Gen X, that's us, women say they're choosing skincare and wellness over procedures.

[00:03:44] Jane: So I've noticed this in advertising and different campaigns popping up targeting our demographic that beauty brands are abandoning that anti-aging term, and I'm noticing more... It's still in use, but I'm noticing more pro-aging than anti-aging because anti-aging makes it sound like we have a problem that we need to fix.

[00:04:07] Jane: But I mean, we're all getting older, and there's nothing we can do about it. But I think that, yeah, I just wanted to see I now in the minority? Because a lot of people I know ha- at least are doing Botox, and so I am not. And I just thought, "Oh wow, I'm just gonna be hanging out with my friends just looking the oldest." And

[00:04:26] Heidi: Oh.

[00:04:28] Jane: I'm still in the majority. And in fact, there's a lot of people who've gotten, and mostly women, who've gotten filler, but then a lot of people are now going in to see their dermatologist and have it dissolved. Because they overdid it, and they're trying to make it look back to more natural because they're realizing they're getting, some stuff done that makes them not look like themselves anymore.

[00:04:49] Jane: So that was a... But you can do it, I think, really subtly. Yeah. They, it's people taking it too far and trying to reel it in. But yeah, I'm still in the majority.

[00:04:58] Etienne: Boy, Heidi, have you used anything in the past?

[00:05:01] Heidi: Um, I tried Botox a couple times, but I think I told you guys I had one eyebrow go higher than the other, and that freaked me out, so I haven't done it since. So I only did it a couple times, and then I had that weird reaction and I'm like, "No, I don't wanna look like one eye is cockeyed."

[00:05:19] Etienne: Which is what I had too. I told you. That's what sent me back to Botox, actually.

[00:05:24] Heidi: Yeah. Yeah, you had the opposite

[00:05:26] Etienne: Yeah. Yeah, 'cause I-- they would put the most in between my eyes, like in my forehead, just between my eyes, and they would put... So the very, very first time they did that, my eyebrows shot up so high, like Dr. Spock, just so freaking high on these eyebrows. But that's part of the appeal a lot of women like, because when you're relaxing these muscles between your eyes, for some reason, this is how the doctors explained it to me, for some reason, the relaxation of the eyebrow muscles- That it relaxes it, but what it looks like it's doing is lifting it up.

[00:05:56] Etienne: It's actually relaxing those muscles. It's like the opposite of what you think. So what they had to do from that point forward for me was Botox in the middle, and then a little bit of Botox on both sides above my eyebrows, so that my eyebrows will stay exactly where they should be and not go anywhere.

[00:06:15] Etienne: And I did this for years. I had a standing appointment. Before I would leave, I would have my next appointment. I was determined never to see those frown lines between my eyes. I don't mind looking older, I just don't wanna look angry, and I think those lines make me look angry. And when I was on a regular schedule all the time, and you you're laughing at me. You laughing at me, Jane? That I don't

[00:06:36] Jane: No, I just remember you talking about, like, you were always concerned for your patients, and so your face was just kinda-- You felt like it was getting permanently fixated. I remember this years ago when you first started doing it, and you were like, "I'm getting this 11, like these two lines." And because I'm just constantly going, "Oh," you know, just like, "Oh, this sucks for them," you know? And then it was just, you felt like it was

[00:06:57] Etienne: Well, not just that.

[00:06:58] Jane: engraved on your face.

[00:07:00] Heidi: yeah, if you look angry all the time, yeah, you're working with children, so you don't wanna look like you're angry at them. I get that,

[00:07:06] Etienne: But the other thing was, so, when you go to bed at night and you wake up in the morning, you usually look better in the morning, right? Like, that's usually what happens. Your face gets time to rest and heal or whatever. And hopefully you're sleeping on your back, 'cause that's the best thing you can do for your face.

[00:07:20] Etienne: But, I had curtains that weren't the best when I used to, like sleep at night 100% of the time and I'd work during the day. And as soon as the sun would come up, while I was sleeping, I would start frowning. So I would wake up with lines between my eyes. That's what made me mad, and that's what I couldn't stop. I tried all

[00:07:38] Jane: you were mad at the sun

[00:07:39] Etienne: mad at the sun. I was like, "Don't. I don't wanna get up. No." You know, and just like getting mad. And, I thought, like, could I put duct tape on my face? Like, is there something that I could put here that would keep me from being able to

[00:07:49] Heidi: Oh, well, they have those things called frownies now.

[00:07:52] Etienne: they?

[00:07:53] Heidi: yeah, they're like starch, they're starch paper, and you put them on your face, and it, like, flattens everything out. People use that. I mean, they're kinda temporary, but it makes it look like you've had Botox, but with... It's just paper with starch.

[00:08:08] Heidi: It's cra- it's the 

[00:08:09] Jane: Frownies? I'm writing this 

[00:08:10] Heidi: yeah, they just... It's super natural. It's, yeah, it's just, it-- People, you wet them down and, you know, you put them up, and it kind of flattens everything out, and it lasts for, like, a day,

[00:08:21] Etienne: Wow.

[00:08:21] Heidi: Where it takes away your wrinkles, 

[00:08:23] Etienne: to put your makeup over it or something? Like, um...

[00:08:26] Heidi: Oh, no, no, you're

[00:08:27] Etienne: Oh, okay, sleep better. Okay. 

[00:08:28] Heidi: So you're waking up and 

[00:08:29] Etienne: I'm like, wait, so we're not 

[00:08:30] Heidi: Yeah, and then all day long you don't have wrinkles. I guess they've been around since, like, the '50s, and it's making a resurgence because they're

[00:08:38] Etienne: Yeah, 'cause people would probably rather not stick Botox in their face.

[00:08:42] Heidi: Yeah, it's for the, yeah, it's for the people, yeah

[00:08:45] Etienne: Oh, so this is what happened. So, I was doing it regularly, the Botox, for years, and years, and years, and years. I can't even tell you. I think it was probably, I mean, it could've been six, seven years I was doing it every three months.

[00:08:58] Etienne: And, so my ex-boyfriend, when we started dating, he slowly got me to, like, "Why are you doing the Botox?" and, "Why are you wearing makeup?" And it was all just like, I mean, did he really think I just need to be 100% natural, or was he hoping I just didn't look quite as attractive so less people would look at me?

[00:09:15] Etienne: I mean, there's always that debate of, like, why do men sometimes make you want to not wear makeup? I didn't wear a ton of makeup, just a little bit of makeup, which is what I do now again 'cause I like it. I like the way I look with just a little bit of makeup. You don't have to go crazy.

[00:09:28] Heidi: I think it was the insecurity

[00:09:29] Etienne: think it was too. So I did, though, over time,

[00:09:32] Heidi: knowing what we know now.

[00:09:34] Etienne: I did stop wearing makeup. I did stop doing the Botox. And after I hadn't done the Botox for maybe a year, I think it took a year, 'cause my dermatologist did say this too. Because I'd been doing it so regularly for so many years, I don't know if I had so much in me or my face got used to having it, it took forever to wear off.

[00:09:53] Etienne: So I still couldn't completely, like, make the frowny bit in between my eyebrows for a long time, but then eventually I could make the frown between my eyes, and then all of a sudden, out of freaking nowhere, my one eyebrow shot up my head. Like, just one eyebrow, not the other one. Yeah, so, and what, I was...

[00:10:13] Etienne: And I was like, "Why is this eyebrow always up? Th- this has gotta be related to my Botox," 'cause that's exactly what used to happen or what could happen if I didn't get the little shots in there. So I did go back to the dermatologist and got just the shot, like, right... But he had to do it on both sides 'cause if you just do one, then I can only raise...

[00:10:29] Etienne: it'll look weird. Yeah, there's just, like, all these hor- you know. So yeah, and then eventually when I broke up with my ex, I went and just, "Yeah, fuck it, I'm getting full-on Botox." I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I still, again, don't wanna look angry, and I think I look angry when I... No. I'm a happy person. I don't wanna look like I'm not a happy person, you know? So yeah, back to the Botox. Oh, well. 

[00:10:54] Heidi: I think it's whoever, whatever you're into as far as what you wanna look like, like that's up to you. Like,

[00:11:01] Etienne: Yeah, I mean, I couldn't imagine.

[00:11:02] Heidi: don't want the needles, but if you're okay with the needles and happy with

[00:11:06] Etienne: I would be not okay with

[00:11:07] Heidi: I say more power 

[00:11:08] Etienne: With blades. I would not be okay with, like, surgical blades, like cutting into my skin or doing the lasers, 'cause that's what my mom did. My mom got that laser, when they did, like, the refinishing of the top couple layers of your skin or something. I don't remember what exactly it was called, but it, it... There was a real surge of this back in the late '90s, I think it was, or mid to late '90s. And her ear, nose, and throat doctor, the same guy who took out my tonsils, he went and did, like, a weekend seminar and bought the machine- Mm-hmm and told her he'd give her a big discount if she wanted to get her face resurfaced with his laser. 

[00:11:47] Heidi: What 

[00:11:47] Etienne: She-

[00:11:48] Jane: being trained for a weekend?

[00:11:50] Etienne: Mm-hmm. It was, like, one weekend. It wasn't, like, a f- yeah, exactly. Not a dermatologist, an ear, nose, and throat doctor. So she went ahead and did it, and she had burns all over her face. He did her neck when she didn't even say that she wanted her neck done, so she had these horrific burns on her neck.

[00:12:09] Etienne: Because of all the burns, for some reason she got this horrible thrush in her mouth and down her throat. So she was actually cho- so when she tried to lay down, she was choking on the globs of, of yeast. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:12:21] Etienne: And it didn't heal forever. She had to have that silver they can wrap the burn patients with and, like... Yeah. She, and she was permanently 

[00:12:28] Heidi: she sue him? 

[00:12:29] Etienne: She did not sue him. She was permanently scarred, I guess because of the... She couldn't get an attorney. Yeah, she could not get an attorney to take her case, and I think it's because of the consent she signed. 

[00:12:38] Heidi: Uh, 

[00:12:39] Etienne: and she did, this was when she was with my stepdad, who was very wealthy and could have paid for an attorney. So if she couldn't even sue him even with money behind her and money that she could pay an attorney for, there had to be some reason that she couldn't. I mean, this was... The scars were permanent. Like, she had them up until... Yeah. 

[00:12:55] Heidi: Like cheap does not, it's

[00:12:57] Etienne: that's why I'm okay with, like, Botox, but there's nothing else you can get me to do because I saw that happen to her, and there was just no way. There is nothing worth getting damage like that. And when you sign some of these consents, look and see what they list as some of the s- possible side effects that can happen to you. It's fucking scary. I mean, that's why I never did LASIK because th- there's a chance you could go blind. I'd rather not see perfectly than be blind, you know?

[00:13:24] Jane: Yeah, I'm like, "I'll wear these glasses." I mean, can I see, like, the writing on the poster across the room from me right now? No. But I put on these glasses and I can see just fine. But that always scared me, and also just procedures scared me. 

[00:13:42] Jane: You know what I used to think? 'Cause, when I was younger, I did have an issue, and every once in a while I'll just be like, I'll get a little sensitive about my nose.

[00:13:49] Jane: I have, like, kind of a prominent nose for a small face. And I was thinking like, "Oh, maybe I would have a nose job." Two things prevented me from ever doing that. Number one, I hate and absolutely hate the feeling of not being able to breathe out of my nose, and the healing from that I've heard is like rough.

[00:14:05] Jane: You can't breathe out of your nose for a couple weeks or something like that. I'm like, all right, that sounds like a nightmare, right? I don't know if that's true anymore or what the healing is, and maybe everybody's different, but just the idea of that, I was like, I'm not sure about that.

[00:14:16] Jane: Don't know if it's worth it. And then number two, I remember when Jennifer Grey, the actress from Dirty Dancing, iconic role, she got a nose job, and then nobody recognized who she was after that, and she never really worked again in Hollywood after she got her nose job. And maybe those things are not correlated, but I do know that I saw an interview with her, and it was really unnerving for her to like, she'd get her nose, quote-unquote, "fixed," which I didn't think that it had any... I thought she was adorable. I didn't think anything needed to be fixed. And then afterwards I'm like, "Who is that?" And I'm like, and it said, the article was like, "Jennifer Grey." And I was like, "Wait, what?" And then I thought, okay, that would be nightmare scenario number two. You look at yourself in the mirror and you don't even recognize yourself. And I was like, that would be really freaky.

[00:14:58] Etienne: Yeah.

[00:14:59] Jane: I now as we're... Yeah.

[00:15:01] Etienne: I, yeah, I love your nose.

[00:15:03] Heidi: Yeah.

[00:15:03] Jane: both very sweet, but it's always been... It's been something I was sensitive about. And then as I get older, because I have a recessed chin and I don't have this like really strong jaw structure, like the jowl situation, like it's gonna happen.

[00:15:14] Jane: And I just thought, would I ever do fillers to try to like counteract that? But then I see what happens to people after they get fillers and then sometimes your body is just like, "What is this stuff in here?" And then they reject it, and then people just look really weird. 

[00:15:28] Jane: And I, I'm taking my aging gracefully cues from my grandmother. My grandmother lived to be 98,

[00:15:35] Etienne: Whoa!

[00:15:35] Jane: and I look a lot like her. I mean, people in my family say, like, "The next time either one of you are at my house, I will show you a picture of her from the late 1930s when she was like younger that you will..." When Phoebe, my, when my daughter saw it, when she was little, she thought that it was me.

[00:15:53] Jane: She was like, "How did you ever get your hair to do like that?" And I was like, "That is..." Yeah. I'm like, "That's not me." I was like, "That's my grandma." And she was like, "That's Gigi?" 'Cause my daughter knew her, just thought like, "Wow, that's crazy." But then she could see it. We have the same smile, we have like... our faces are very similar, our bone structure is very similar. When my grandmother, as she was getting older, she would just do this thing where she would wrap, like do this kind of almost like a neck wrap where she was kind of... It was this weird contraption that went over the door, and she kind of put her...

[00:16:22] Jane: It was like a chin strap thing so that she wouldn't get a double chin, and then every morning she did these s- specific jaw exercises. We spent a lot of time with my grandparents growing up, and I remember watching her do certain things. And I was young at the time, and I was just like, " Whatever, that's just what Grandma does when she wakes up." And now I get it. And so guess who's doing the things that

[00:16:40] Etienne: Wait, do you remember what they were?

[00:16:42] Jane: w- 100% I 

[00:16:43] Heidi: Oh, that's cool.

[00:16:45] Jane: And so I have recently just kind of had a epiphany, I guess, because I have a couple of her dresses that I wear, and I just think about my grandparents a lot because I'm turning into my grandmother with certain things that I do, like certain kind of pants that I like to wear, certain kinds of things I do in my yard, certain habits that I have of, um...

[00:17:08] Jane: Like they were both, my grandparents, like very healthy eaters and very into the arts and volunteering. And like, as I'm getting older, I'm like, "Oh, I need to do these things." I'm just realizing even having a little fish pond in my yard, like that's what they did. I'm like, "Oh my God, I'm literally turning into my grandparents."

[00:17:25] Jane: But they looked great, and they lived long and healthy lives, and, there was zero procedures being done. They just exercised, they stayed active,

[00:17:36] Heidi: Mm-hmm.

[00:17:36] Jane: and they both did like some kind of facial thing in the morning. But I do remember watching my grandmother and specifically that.

[00:17:43] Jane: And my grandmother had three daughters. They all got like this kind of sagging, not quite like a full double chin, but my grandmother didn't and

[00:17:51] Etienne: Are you serious? So she did not-- She did those exercises. All right, now you gotta show us the whole... Yeah.

[00:17:57] Heidi: Yeah, you 

[00:17:58] Jane: So one of those like pursing your lips together and making like a blowfish and then kind of moving the air to either side.

[00:18:05] Etienne: Mm-hmm. Okay.

[00:18:06] Jane: And then another one was pursing your lips together and, right, I'm gonna do this and you guys can help describe because people can't see us. All right. But you're kinda... So pursing your lips together, and I guess I'm kind of like flexing the muscles of my neck, like flaring out, like, mm. You

[00:18:23] Etienne: Oh, wait. So you're trying to flare out your neck muscles? I don't

[00:18:25] Jane: Yes.

[00:18:26] Etienne: do that. Oh,

[00:18:27] Jane: But pursing my lips together and the-

[00:18:30] Heidi: like you're trying to move ChapStick around your

[00:18:33] Jane: Yes. But also, like, 

[00:18:36] Heidi: But flexing your 

[00:18:37] Jane: But flexing your neck as you're doing so.

[00:18:39] Etienne: Okay, now I'm 

[00:18:40] Jane: And it brings my jaw forward a little bit 'cause my jaw doesn't naturally do that, so I'm just trying to do that. And then she would go E, E, E. Like she has like her teeth together and saying like E, E, E. Yeah.

[00:18:53] Etienne: Are you trying to really flex and, that's 

[00:18:54] Jane: and g- and kinda going like ow, ow, ow. Like and just doing like j- and I don't know if that 

[00:19:00] Heidi: Like very exaggerated.

[00:19:01] Jane: Very exaggerated vowel situations, but just E and O. Like it was, but more like she sounded like she was saying ow. So,

[00:19:09] Heidi: yeah.

[00:19:09] Jane: yeah. So I don't... And I don't have the contraption she used to look like she was, we used to say Grandma's hanging herself. I know that's really dark, but

[00:19:16] Etienne: I know, but you said it was, like, over the

[00:19:19] Heidi: scarf

[00:19:19] Jane: It went over the door, and imagine a chin strap on like you were almost trying to, it looked like sporting equipment. But, it drew her, it had her posture held straight, and it just kind of held her jaw forward a little bit and tucked underneath her chin.

[00:19:36] Jane: And I don't have anything like that, nor would I even know what it's called to look up. But I did get one of these little wrapper things that has Velcro with a top, and you just kind of put it under your neck. So just like slight compression. And I don't know if it works, but I'll just do it while I'm just reading for like 30 minutes, and then I take it off.

[00:19:55] Etienne: Wow. Well, I have a question for you. So how long-- When your grandma did the thing over the door, whatever, how long would she be in the little s- contraption,

[00:20:02] Jane: Between 30 and 45 minutes.

[00:20:04] Etienne: Wow, that is

[00:20:05] Jane: And she would just sit there and read while she did it.

[00:20:07] Etienne: Oh,

[00:20:08] Jane: She would just go downstairs where she had it all set up in their little basement area and just read her magazine. And everybody in the family made fun of her, but as my sister and I got older, we were like, "We've noticed you're the only woman in the family as you're getting older that doesn't have that little wobbly thing. And I've noticed that you did these exercises and you're doing that thing." And, it was like, "And you look amazing." And she got tears in her eyes and she said, "Thank you for noticing."

[00:20:33] Etienne: Oh.

[00:20:35] Jane: a very 

[00:20:35] Heidi: spent day in, day

[00:20:37] Etienne: Ugh. 

[00:20:38] Jane: and her,

[00:20:39] Heidi: working at 

[00:20:39] Jane: her family made fun of her, but she also, she drank hot water with lemon, and she always just had a lot of fruits and veggies and lean meats, and she exercised.

[00:20:51] Jane: And, I'm telling you, she lived to be 98. She would've lived longer if she hadn't fallen and broken her hip. But I think, like not falling and breaking your hip until you're 96 is pretty good.

[00:21:00] Etienne: good, yeah. Yeah.

[00:21:01] Heidi: Yeah. Yeah

[00:21:02] Jane: And I'm literally the same size as her, like everything. We look so much alike it's a little creepy.

[00:21:07] Etienne: Wow. And this is your mother's mother, or...?

[00:21:10] Jane: Yes, my mom's mom.

[00:21:11] Etienne: Okay. Wow. That's dedication. Didn't Kim teach us like the facial yoga she did wh- at one of the conferences that time?

[00:21:19] Jane: One of our writer friends at a conference was talking about similar... And I feel like the stuff that she was showing us was similar to what my grandmother did.

[00:21:28] Heidi: Hmm. I 

[00:21:28] Etienne: Yeah.

[00:21:29] Jane: I, I 

[00:21:30] Heidi: have to look something. 

[00:21:31] Jane: I mean, why wouldn't it, right? Like you can do exercises and sculpt other parts of your body. It's worth a shot. So, 'cause I don't wanna do any kind of weird things would that would make me too nervous.

[00:21:43] Heidi: There's this guasha. It's where they kinda like just take some hard thing or a hard brush, and they drain the lymphatic fluid out of your face, and it looks like an instant s- facelift for some of these people. Like they do it under the eye, along the jawline

[00:22:01] Jane: Is

[00:22:02] Etienne: some of this a rollerball?

[00:22:04] Jane: a jade roller, but I think this, what you're talking about is different. It almost looks like a blade, but it's not. It's just like a stone that's hard, and it's like

[00:22:10] Heidi: stone or there's even these brushes now

[00:22:13] Etienne: Dang.

[00:22:14] Heidi: That they're making. But they're really simple contraptions and I'm wanting to get one. See it like break, it, just cuts down the puffiness of your face, and then also like it kinda lifts everything. I don't know. It looks really cool.

[00:22:27] Etienne: That is interesting.

[00:22:28] Heidi: I'm willing to try it.

[00:22:29] Etienne: Well, as we, as I brought up in the very, very beginning of the episode, I am a firm believer in it and I'm very lucky that I had to wear sunscreen early in my life, 'cause I got cystic acne when I was 18. And I've always been a... I've got that type of skin where, I don't know if this is a Scandinavian thing since I'm mostly like Scandinavian British, where I would burn and peel and be the same color afterwards. So me laying out in the sun was pointless. 

[00:22:56] Heidi: I just get red. I 

[00:22:59] Etienne: would burn, peel, and nope, same color. Yeah, nothing would change except I'm getting sun damage. Like, 

[00:23:05] Heidi: Yes, 

[00:23:06] Etienne: but yeah, but getting acne at 18 and having to go on... I mean, I was on doxycycline for years. I think it was like five years I was on doxycycline for, and I took Accutane twice, but they also had me on, I'm still on it. It started out with Retin-A and I still use Tazorac cream, which is like Retin-A. So I've been using this my entire life, so that obviously is... I mean, that's supposed to, what I believe my understanding of how that works is it's supposed to make your skin turn over faster So, the new layers of skin come up faster than other people's when you use this, like the Retin-A or Tazorac.

[00:23:40] Heidi: Which makes you more sensitive to

[00:23:41] Etienne: So I always, 

[00:23:42] Heidi: and s- 

[00:23:43] Etienne: had to wear sunscreen on my face every day. And even if I was working inside or it's like. Have you ever been in buildings where there's plants that are nowhere near the sunshine? Like nowhere, there's no sunshine. How are there plants living inside a building with no sunshine?

[00:24:01] Etienne: And I finally asked somebody one day when I was working at 20th Century Fox, 'cause there was people who'd go around and all their job was to do was to take care of the plants in the buildings. And I asked them, "How is... This is a real plant?" I literally asked that 'cause I thought it was fake. I'm like, "There is no sunshine. How is this thing alive? Like, what do you-- do you switch these out? What do you do?" And they're like, "Oh no, there's UV rays coming from the lights." And I'm like, "What?" I mean, I was already wearing sunscreen every day, so it didn't matter. But to find out that there was UV rays coming from the lights above me in my work, like that means that we're also getting UV from some of our light bulbs.

[00:24:36] Etienne: Yeah. I don't know if it's still every light, but this was like fluorescent lights, back in the day. Um, yeah. So you're literally getting sun damage possibly, all the time and don't even realize it, you know? And there's that famous picture, literally when I was looking up why should we wear sunscreen? That's what I Googled to like get the sunscreen fun fact for today. There's that famous picture of, I think it's supposed to be a truck driver who never wore sunscreen.

[00:25:00] Etienne: Yeah, so the one half of the face is fine, like looks normal and not that aged, and then the other one is just full on wrinkly. The UV just breaks down your skin. It does it in all the bad ways. Yeah. So anybody out there who is young and listening to this podcast, consider using self-tanners if you wanna change the color of your skin, and 

[00:25:20] Heidi: Mm-hmm. 

[00:25:21] Etienne: every day. You will thank yourself when you're in your 50s that you look like you're in your 40s.

[00:25:26] Heidi: so much better now.

[00:25:27] Etienne: Yeah, they are. You don't have to be orange.

[00:25:29] Heidi: No, they look good. Like, you can get the gradual stuff,

[00:25:33] Etienne: You can just have a light 

[00:25:34] Heidi: that in a lotion form. I use that all the time.

[00:25:37] Jane: Yeah, another shout out to my grandparents is that, like my grandpa... No, well, my grandfather got melanoma when I was pretty young, like before people really talked about that. And he had to go to the dermatologist and get things scooped out of like pieces of his forehead, his back, his chest, because he used to for years just cut the grass with no shirt on.

[00:25:57] Etienne: Hmm.

[00:25:57] Jane: And once he discovered this, all right, so some people get care packages from their grandparents that are full of like, I don't know, chocolates and, 

[00:26:07] Heidi: Snacks. 

[00:26:08] Jane: toys. Oh no, my grandparents used to send us care packages that had Polaroids of him getting the cancer scooped out of him within bottles of sunscreen, and he would just say, "Love you lots. Don't forget your sunscreen." And it was fucking scarring. So I was just like, "Yeah, yeah." And so I never... i was just like, "I'm wearing this all the time." Now, did I mess up a few times when I was young and forgot and/or didn't reapply after I was swimming and that type of thing? And I did sustain a couple of bad burns as a kid, but it wasn't for lack of trying to not have that happen to me.

[00:26:40] Jane: I loved being in the water and everything, so sometimes I just messed up. But I was like, "Oh, Grandpa said," you know? So I was constantly putting it. And it's part of my daily routine. My moisturizer that I put on my face in the morning, every morning. I brush my teeth, and then I rinse off my face, and then I dry off my face,

[00:26:57] Etienne: didn't

[00:26:57] Jane: and then I put my daily facial moisturizer on that has, it just has 20 SPF because I don't wanna completely block out like all my vitamin D, you know.

[00:27:05] Jane: But, then if I'm going to be in the sun for longer than just my morning walk or an afternoon walk, then I have sunscreen. I have backup sunscreen in my car in case I forget. I have sunscreen in my purse. I have, I mean, like the

[00:27:19] Etienne: you had so much.

[00:27:22] Jane: Oh yeah, I just, if you ever need sunscreen, I have it. If you, if you forget, I have it

[00:27:28] Heidi: too.

[00:27:29] Etienne: I will come to you if I-- either one of you if I need sunscreen.

[00:27:33] Jane: Well, I've been with Heidi when we were walking on the beach in the winter, and she was like, "I'm gonna burst into flames. I forgot my sunscreen." And I didn't have it then because I didn't have my purse on the beach, but I just thought that she had applied before we left. But she's like, "You got red, like just on your chest," and it was December or something.

[00:27:46] Heidi: Yes. Yeah. 

[00:27:47] Etienne: It's crazy how easy it happens. I would do the same thing. If I went outside with no sunscreen on in South Carolina here in the summertime, oh my God, it would probably take five minutes before I would be red. Mm-hmm.

[00:27:59] Etienne: Yeah. It would be bad. When I go outside here and do yard work in general, I will wear my sunscreen and completely cover, my entire body and wear a giant hat, so I am as safe as possible. Yeah.

[00:28:13] Jane: the other thing, a hat with a wide brim or something on it, which is another thing my grandparents always wore. I'm like literally just turning into them, but I don't mind because they aged very well. I remember watching my grandfather at age 80 slalom water skiing. Like he got up regularly, and then he kicked off one of the skis and he was slaloming around, slaloming.

[00:28:35] Jane: And then just going hiking with them when I was younger, they're the people that got me... That's why I love hiking so much, that's what they did with us. That was a major activity. That and doing yard work and gardening and I learned how to grow vegetables from watching my grandparents do it and teach me.

[00:28:52] Jane: And so, this is how you eat, this is how you exercise. And I remember my grandmother telling me at a very young age, but she was watching the proliferation of processed foods and she was horrified. And she would just say, "Do not buy anything from the middle of the grocery store." She goes, "You wanna shop the perimeter." She goes, "That's where the real food is." And she's telling me this, I'm like five,

[00:29:11] Heidi: Wow.

[00:29:12] Jane: And it stuck. 'Cause you guys know how I am about food. I get weird about it. It was a good thing to have drilled into my head. But they aged gracefully, and it was a gift.

[00:29:22] Jane: And so now I'm like, all right, now I'm at the age as they were approaching retirement, and I'm just... I get it now. I get all the things that they did. And then they would do like a series of stretches every morning. And I know now that some of the stuff that they were doing was very yogic, you know?

[00:29:37] Jane: And, they would face the sun, and do it. It wasn't complete sun salutation like yoga flow, but it was pretty close. And my grandfather was very, he was like, "You gotta have the vim and the vigah." They just had their Brooklyn accents till very late in life, and they would just be sitting there doing squats

[00:29:51] Etienne: Oh my 

[00:29:51] Jane: stretches. And yeah, and then they'd be eating very healthy food and a lot of it they grew themselves. It was good stuff.

[00:29:59] Etienne: How old was your grandfather when he died?

[00:30:00] Jane: He passed away when he was 88. Uh, but he had leukemia.

[00:30:04] Etienne: Oh, okay.

[00:30:05] Jane: He had leukemia and he was being treated for it and he was doing fine, but then what actually was the cause of death was pneumonia. But it was while he was undergoing treatment and then he got an infection and then he couldn't fight

[00:30:17] Etienne: It was probably an opportunistic pneumonia, 'cause what we do for the kids, they have to take Bactrim three times a week to make sure that they do not get... And that's a prophylactic for them to not get the, I think it's pneumocystic, pneumocystis carinii perhaps, but it's pneumonia basically. The kind that any of us would get if our immune systems were basically destroyed.

[00:30:40] Heidi: Mm-hmm. 

[00:30:41] Etienne: Damn, that sucks. I'm sorry. Yeah, there's things that medical profession learns over time, and I don't know if he was on any prophylactic antibiotics

[00:30:50] Jane: don't remember. All I remember though is that up until that point though, he was still doing really well. Like, I mean, he taught ballroom dancing classes. He taught aqua aerobics. It wasn't like he was taking these classes. He was teaching these classes to people. And both my grandparents used to go and volunteer at nursing homes.

[00:31:07] Jane: And they were older than some of the people in there, and they would dress up as clowns and just be silly and just, and visit people and bring them things and do little routines. One of them involved, it looked, at a distance, like they were wearing hats, but they were actually bed pans on their heads.

[00:31:23] Etienne: God, I hope these were never used bedpans.

[00:31:26] Jane: No, no, no, no, no. They weren't. But they were,

[00:31:29] Etienne: Oh.

[00:31:30] Jane: Yeah. Like I'm telling you, they never had anything really in their house to drink except for water or tea and and they... 

[00:31:36] Heidi: they kept their minds

[00:31:38] Jane: Oh, yeah. Yes.

[00:31:40] Heidi: by doing all those healthy habits, you know?

[00:31:42] Jane: My grandmother was pretty sharp until the last year.

[00:31:45] Etienne: this was after she broke her hip, but she-

[00:31:47] Jane: Yeah. Yeah. And she did some physical therapy, but then she needed a lot of help to get around. And then she was in a wheelchair. But she was, like I said, she was pretty sharp until the last year. And some of the stuff she'd tell you, she was just matter of factly. She's like, " I just pissed myself." And I was like, "Whoa!"

[00:32:03] Etienne: Wow.

[00:32:04] Jane: I was like, "Okay." She's like, "Yeah, I need, I need help." I'm like, "Okay."

[00:32:07] Etienne: Oh, my 

[00:32:08] Jane: But before that, very gracefully. Very gracefully. And she didn't dye her hair. I don't know, like you guys... So I still dye my hair. In fact, I have an appointment on Friday. And Etty, you stopped dyeing your hair several years ago. Was that also part of like your ex was like, "You don't need to," but then you stopped but you liked it? Because you, you have such beautiful hair. Like my hair doesn't look like yours, but if I let it go silver, it would all just be very wiry. They have minds of their own.

[00:32:34] Etienne: Yeah, so it started out, well, I, I had thought about it before actually, when I was still married, about seeing what it would look like if it grew out a little bit. Because, I was dyeing my hair. You listeners have no idea, but I used to dye my hair bright red for years and years. And because of how white my hair was in the front, I'd have to go get it done every three weeks because it would just grow out and look really crazy.

[00:32:57] Etienne: So, when... It was actually started before the pandemic hit. I started letting a strip of it in the front start to go natural, and that had been going on for, like six or eight months before the pandemic shut everybody down, you know, when we weren't supposed to go anywhere. So at that point I could not get my hair done.

[00:33:18] Etienne: I think I had an appointment right when things got shut down, so I was way overdue by the time things reopened. And at that point I was like, "You know what? Fuck this." Like, tired of this. Let's see what it will look like all of it grown out." And, I thought worst case I could just cut all of my hair off and just grow it out.

[00:33:35] Etienne: But they were able to, the hairdresser, to remove a lot of the red out. So my color of hair kind of looked like, where the dye used to be, sort of like a strawberry blonde color. So I was able to kinda grow my hair out over time to the full-on gray, 'cause it's basically white and, like, my natural color, so it comes out kind of a gray. I don't know. 

[00:33:58] Heidi: it's beautiful.

[00:34:00] Etienne: more in the front than the back. It just looks a little mousey in the back, but it's fine. Whatever. I will take it. Yeah, I literally haven't colored it since 2020, so, just having all that color removed. Yes, it's been six years now. 

[00:34:14] Heidi: I'm enjoying my gray streak in the front. I like it.

[00:34:18] Etienne: So wait, are you just doing the streak or do you color the rest of it? Or is it just- is your natural color. 

[00:34:23] Heidi: I, The last time, 'cause I was bleaching it to be able to do the purples and the pinks and stuff, and it just the purple just kind of faded out, and so it's lightened on the ends, but now it's just the gray is coming in really well. But I got a nice streak in the front. But, I haven't colored it in, I guess, a year and a half maybe now.

[00:34:46] Etienne: I think- Mm. I think a streak is really cool. I 

[00:34:48] Heidi: Yeah, yeah. 

[00:34:49] Etienne: yeah. Um- But

[00:34:52] Jane: thing I'm gonna keep

[00:34:53] Etienne: what? You're gonna

[00:34:53] Jane: I don't know. My,

[00:34:54] Etienne: I mean, you can.

[00:34:55] Jane: naturally black, so I just feel like, I'm gonna keep doing it until it looks dumb. Until someone's like, "You're

[00:35:00] Etienne: Until it looks dumb.

[00:35:02] Jane: you know what I mean? Like, until

[00:35:03] Heidi: Elvis, dumb, you

[00:35:04] Etienne: God, that does look creepy. That looks

[00:35:06] Jane: Now I have softened it. Like, I don't go full black now. It's just a dark, dark brown.

[00:35:11] Etienne: Mm.

[00:35:12] Jane: And, um, but 

[00:35:13] Heidi: I think it looks natural. I didn't realize you were 

[00:35:15] Etienne: I didn't either, actually. So to be honest, you're doing a great

[00:35:19] Jane: it lighter. But, I'm starting to have the roots now. But I found a couple of grays in my eyebrows, and I'm like, "Uh-oh, here we go." Like,

[00:35:27] Etienne: have a crazy one that I will not pluck. I just leave it there. I do. It's crazy. It looks like this one old man whisker coming out of my eyebrow.

[00:35:37] Jane: Can you just tame it? Like, try to

[00:35:39] Etienne: No.

[00:35:40] Jane: it?

[00:35:41] Heidi: No, just go straight 

[00:35:42] Etienne: fuck, yeah. It's like, fuck you. That's why it's like pointing at people.

[00:35:48] Heidi: I'm not gonna take your

[00:35:50] Etienne: I've tried to tame it down. It doesn't go anywhere. It just, just like still s- I mean, I can pluck it, but I have so little eyebrow, I don't wanna pluck any of

[00:36:00] Jane: I know. You're like, "Everyone is precious. You just gotta keep

[00:36:02] Etienne: my precious. Yes,

[00:36:03] Jane: That... Well,

[00:36:05] Etienne: all so precious. 

[00:36:06] Jane: But that's how I feel about mine. I'm like, I don't, I'm like, yeah, we're all getting, like, uh... I'm like, no, they're, they're not gonna replace, there's no replacement if I, if I pluck this. They're just not gonna grow back. So I was like, this is it. So when they go rogue, I do have eyebrow gel, and I'll just sit there and just be like, "You stay." You know? And I just sit there and I just, 

[00:36:24] Etienne: some Vaseline, you know, actually. I- people used to do that back in the day, little, you know, you take a little brush. 

[00:36:30] Jane: A little Vaseline or I've used hair gel. Now I just get, now they make eyebrow gel and it looks like a little, like, just clear mascara and I just basically am just like, "Stay where you go." And, I think that'll be the deciding factor is if I start to have a bunch of grays in my eyebrows that are noticeable to other people. Like, I know where the ones live. Like, they're in the same spot, kind of on each eyebrow. They're like, they're close.

[00:36:52] Etienne: those can also be colored too.

[00:36:54] Heidi: Yeah, well, I use brow gel that's, like, slightly

[00:36:58] Etienne: Yeah.

[00:36:59] Heidi: and I tame them with that, and it kind of colors in where the 

[00:37:03] Etienne: But you do have f- yeah, but she does have thicker eyebrows, so you could actually, they could just dab on whatever's going on your head, can be dabbed right on your

[00:37:11] Jane: Oh, I feel like that's dangerous. It's gonna get in my eye. I do. I'm like, I worry

[00:37:17] Etienne: get nervous. Yeah.

[00:37:18] Jane: I do. I g- please, I

[00:37:20] Etienne: They've got the eyebrow gel. Yep, you can just cover it up with that. You can go forever. You can color your hair till you die, like literally all the way to the end. You could, you could

[00:37:27] Jane: That's what I told Brendon.

[00:37:30] Heidi: to, I used to love the little old lady that lived in the green apartments with us. We would bring her May baskets and she was awesome. She was such a cool chick. But she would have blue hair and purple hair. This is back in, like, the '80s. Early-- no. Yeah, yeah, early '80s. 

[00:37:47] Jane: Nice. 

[00:37:47] Heidi: She was rocking the blue and purple hair back then, and I just thought she was the coolest at, like, age seven.

[00:37:55] Etienne: so funny.

[00:37:56] Jane: That's how I feel like I would wanna start doing just like crazy stuff, you know? Just I'm kind of looking forward to like I'm hoping and praying and trying to keep my mind sharp so that as I age, like I could just keep doing it. But I could imagine myself, and I don't know if this is part of actually aging gracefully or just acting out and just giving less fucks. But I just feel like it'd be kind of fun just to pretend that my mind's not altogether there, so I could just say whatever. And like the excuse is just like, "I'm old," you know? Just like, just say whatever.

[00:38:26] Etienne: are your pants like that? You know, just like

[00:38:28] Jane: Yes. Yes, pull your pants up.

[00:38:31] Etienne: Kevin.

[00:38:32] Jane: And then they just look at you, and then you're just like, "Kevin," and like th- their name is, you know, like something totally not even close, you know? And they're just like, "I'm Jason." You're just like, "What? I have, I'm old," you know? "Just pull your pants

[00:38:43] Etienne: Who cares? You're so-and-so. Stop saying you're Jason.

[00:38:47] Jane: Yeah.

[00:38:49] Etienne: Sorry.

[00:38:50] Jane: you know, 'cause I'm almost there. I'm definitely the woman who just wants to like, 

[00:38:54] Heidi: Tell the truth at 

[00:38:56] Jane: and I, I'm already doing it. Like I saw like a kid litter in my neighborhood the other day, and I was just like about to freak out on him. I was about to follow him home. I'm like, "I'm gonna tell your mom. We're gonna have a conversation with her right now about like how you should not be littering. We all live here. You're being really disrespectful." I was like I pick up garbage in my neighborhood, if I see it, and I know it was a kid. I'm like, "This is a juice box." Like this is not from 

[00:39:16] Heidi: yep. 

[00:39:16] Etienne: What adult is using a juice, or yeah, drinking a juice box, tossing it out the window?

[00:39:20] Jane: No. No. This is a Skittles wrapper and a juice box. This is a kid and I'm gonna find them. And I'm like, oh no. I'm turning into, like I'm just one day away from get off my lawn

[00:39:30] Heidi: Get a

[00:39:32] Jane: I'm there. I'm there. And you know what? I feel like that's part of aging gracefully. I'm taking my rightful spot as, you know, the, the crone of the neighborhood who just keeps people in line. But for good, for things that you should be kept in line about. I'm not really telling anybody to pull up their pants. I really don't care. Listen to whatever music you want. Be nuts, but don't litter. That's where I am. That's my line.

[00:39:54] Etienne: Yeah. That's a good line. Yeah. Wait, did you actually talk to the kid that littered?

[00:40:00] Jane: 100%. 

[00:40:01] Etienne: Did he say when you when you confronted him? 

[00:40:03] Jane: Looked dumbfounded. He was, like, trying to walk fast, and was like, Oh, 

[00:40:06] Etienne: leaves and walk away? 

[00:40:08] Jane: Yeah. And I was like, "I think with it we need to talk to your parents about this littering situation." I was just like, "You can't be doing this." And then he just, like, he went back and picked it up, and I was like, "There you go. There you go." I was like, just... I was like, "Just do that from now on and we won't have to tell your parents." I'm, ugh, definitely a little crotchety about certain things.

[00:40:32] Etienne: Crotchety.

[00:40:32] Jane: I'm unapologetic about that one.

[00:40:34] Etienne: Oh my God, that's lovely. 

[00:40:35] Heidi: And that's our show. You've been listening to The Women Are Plotting. If you have a story you'd like to share or have any comments, we'd love to hear from you. Email us at info@thewomenareplotting.com. And of course, you can find us on all the socials. Thanks, and until next time, be safe and be excellent to each other.