Ghosting: When Is It Okay to Just Disappear?

Why do people suddenly disappear without explanation—and is ghosting ever the right thing to do?

In this engaging episode of The Women Are Plotting, Etienne Rose Olivier, Heidi Willis, and Jane Gari dive into one of modern dating's most frustrating phenomena: ghosting. Drawing from psychological research, personal experiences, and plenty of humor, the hosts explore why people ghost romantic partners, friends, and even long-term relationships, while examining the emotional impact on everyone involved.

The conversation covers online dating, texting culture, emotional maturity, rejection, difficult conversations, toxic relationships, and the growing influence of technology on modern communication. The hosts share unforgettable stories of awkward dates, clingy matches, friendship breakups, accidental ghosting, and the rare situations where disappearing without another word may actually be the safest choice.

Whether you've been ghosted, have ghosted someone yourself, or are simply navigating today's dating world, this episode offers honest insights into communication, boundaries, closure, and why having one difficult conversation can sometimes make all the difference.

Email us at info@thewomenareplotting.com, and find us on all the socials. Be safe and be excellent to each other.

Transcript

Copy

[00:00:00] Etienne: And when I told him that I wasn't going to be meeting him again. He was not letting go. He was not letting go and he was being totally rude and overly sexual. And I'm like, I don't care what you wanna do to me. It doesn't matter what you wanna do to me, it's not happening. Like there, I'm telling you it's done.

[00:00:18] Etienne: Why are we still talk? Like I, so I literally had a conversation, like I'm talking about with a person I didn't know. I literally went, I spent like two hours with him and he's acting like we were getting married or something. Like what?

[00:00:30] Heidi: Yeah. There's a couple people like that I've been in text exchanges with where they're arguing about it. It's like, n

[00:00:36] Etienne: Like, is this gonna work? Why are you thinking this is gonna work? Like in what universe? Are you gonna say this to a woman? And she's like, oh, sorry. Yeah, no, I take it back. Um, I totally, can we get married like

[00:00:47] Heidi: You convinced me. 

[00:00:48] Jane: Uh. See, now you guys make me feel like I need to be in defensive ghosting 'cause you're like, yeah, that's too, no, because that's like energy vampire stuff. 

[00:00:56] Etienne: Welcome listeners. This is The Women Are Plotting. I'm Etienne Rose Olivier and I'm here with my friends and co-hosts, Heidi Willis and Jane Gari.

[00:01:11] Etienne: On today's episode, we're gonna be talking about ghosting. And my fun fact for today comes from Psychology Today article entitled, Why Partners Disappear, the Psychology of Ghosting. This was an updated article from August 13th, 2025, and the key points from this are that younger people and men ghost more often, and one of the reasons that people decide that ghosting is a great way to end a relationship is from excessive texting or constant contact can push someone to ghost, which I thought was really interesting. There was something else too. This was really funny, one of the subtitles of the article are Ghosters Terrible People was one of the, one of the one larger font like sections of the article and the first word. Yes. But, then it goes on to say, if you've ever been ghosted, that's what you want me to say. However, yeah. When researchers did in-depth interviews with 34 Ghosters, it wasn't that simple.

[00:02:13] Etienne: First. Nearly every ghoster in the study, 33 out of 34, could clearly state why they ghosted. So that told the researchers that people aren't just ghosting because they're heartless or impulsive. But I just love that when I, I laughed out loud when I read are Ghosters terrible people. Yes.

[00:02:30] Heidi: Yes.

[00:02:33] Etienne: Oh my God. But it did gimme a better understanding about ghosting. So, yeah. But I think, Jane, you're gonna share your fun or interesting fact for today.

[00:02:43] Jane: Yes, it actually piggybacks off of yours. Different study. But this was from an organization called Thriving Center of Psychology. And they did a study on ghosting also. But the facts that had stood out to me were that after ghosting, more people feel relief than regret. So when

[00:03:05] Etienne: people who are ghosting or the people who are the ghostees?

[00:03:08] Jane: The people who are the ghosters, like, so less than half of the people that they surveyed actually felt regret

[00:03:16] Etienne: Oh

[00:03:16] Jane: for ghosting somebody. Only seven and 10 felt guilty about it. So yeah, that's still the majority. That's 70%, but that means that there's a third of people who do it are just like, yeah, whatever. Like, they don't feel bad about it at all. And then after they do it, they felt relief. They're like, all right, cool. Now I don't have to deal with that person anymore. And they actually divided it up by how men and women felt after they ghosted somebody, 91% of the women who ghosted someone, they felt relief after that. Like, whew, now I don't have to deal with that jerk anymore. Or, they're thinking like, okay, I've gotten them outta my life. I'm just gonna not, I've just have decided not to talk to them anymore. And then, 80% of men said that they felt relief after deciding to ghost to a woman.

[00:04:00] Jane: I just thought, wow, this is, like you said, Etienne, it's complicated, right? We would love to be able to say like, all right, ghosters are terrible, but usually there's some reason for it, right? And you're just like, I just cannot bring myself to confront this person, so I'm just going to not talk to them ever again.

[00:04:16] Etienne: Yeah, the article that I had went on to say, it's usually because the person that they're ghosting, the person they're trying to get rid of, they just don't want to have the long conversation about why they wanna end things. They're just like, why? This is just gonna go on for way too long. I don't want the headache of that, so fuck it. Just gonna like ghost myself out here.

[00:04:35] Jane: Yep. And it's kind of an easy route. I'm curious, Heidi, is that in the vein of what you found also, or you have something else to share?

[00:04:44] Heidi: Yeah, so it says ghosting is associated with negative mental health effects on the person on the receiving end, and has been described by some mental health professionals as a passive aggressive form of emotional abuse or cruelty. And so a lot of times, yeah, they don't realize the effects, the ghoster doesn't realize the negative emotional, mental health effects it's having on the ghostee.

[00:05:09] Heidi: They don't realize. And then the origins of the term, it comes from early two thousands and it came about because of online relationships and,

[00:05:18] Etienne: I figured it

[00:05:19] Heidi: so much easier. Hmm.

[00:05:20] Etienne: figured that's probably when it came, I figured that had to be a term that started from online dating or texting by either one. Since it is so easy to ghost somebody via text

[00:05:29] Etienne: versus, 

[00:05:29] Etienne: And like our smartphones, you can just delete somebody or know who's calling. I mean, we haven't been able to know for that long, like, caller id. When did that come about? I feel like that was around 2000, or I could be wrong.

[00:05:40] Heidi: No,

[00:05:41] Jane: it was much earlier, and I only know that for it was in the eighties because

[00:05:46] Heidi: it was in the eighties.

[00:05:47] Jane: You had to pay for, it was a service that

[00:05:48] Heidi: had pay,

[00:05:49] Jane: for, I know this

[00:05:50] Heidi: we had it.

[00:05:51] Jane: I got caught prank calling people. That's the story for another day because of caller id, I accidentally pranked my neighbor who worked for the phone company and that he was, and he had the prototype of that, and that was in the mid eighties.

[00:06:04] Jane: And then it was widely released and then you could star 69 somebody right? To figure out who might have hung up on you or pranked you or something. And then caller ID became widely available

[00:06:15] Etienne: and then I know you could also put in a code so they couldn't star 69 you. You could put the code in first, then dial the number so they wouldn't know where it was coming from or they wouldn't be able to call it like, do the star 69 back to you or something. I don't know.

[00:06:26] Jane: Correct. And I think it was actually Star 76. I used to have to do that when I was a teacher and if I was calling parents from home, I did not want them to have my number. Um, but you can't do that anymore.

[00:06:36] Etienne: Yeah, no, can't do that. I would be really scared if I saw somebody come up on my phone where it says like, no identification or something, you know? I would think its like some kind of CIA person or something. I don't know. Like who's calling? I'm not answering that ever. There's no way.

[00:06:52] Jane: But like you said this new technology makes it really easy to just ignore people then. Block them. You could block someone from even reaching

[00:07:00] Etienne: Yeah, I didn't know about blocking till like 2014 or 15. And yeah, there was somebody I needed to block and I found out about it because he had been blocked by somebody. So he was telling me that he had been blocked by a previous girlfriend or somebody was dating, and then I immediately blocked him as soon as I left the date because he was a fucking weirdo and was following me home. Yeah. And, I unmatched him from the dating app and I blocked him immediately. That's what it was. I think I un, I think one of the other that I did first, he immediately messaged me on the other one and said, you just unmatched me. That's not cool. And that's, and I blocked him like, it was

[00:07:37] Jane: Is blocking, like extreme ghosting, like, is

[00:07:40] Etienne: I think it's gotta be, 'cause there's no that, remember that happened to Daisy with her boyfriend that she moved to Iowa for?

[00:07:46] Heidi: Mm-hmm.

[00:07:46] Etienne: He,

[00:07:47] Heidi: Oh yeah, that's

[00:07:48] Etienne: he broke up with her via text and then blocked, dropped her off of all of the socials and blocked her from his phone, after he said, yep, we're done.

[00:07:56] Jane: Daisy was a previous guest that we had on who had talked with us about dating profiles and also talked with us about her trials and tribulations with endometriosis. So check it

[00:08:08] Etienne: Oh no, she wasn't endometriosis. She was getting hormones because she's having perimenopausal symptoms that were so bad.

[00:08:14] Heidi: that's right. That's.

[00:08:15] Etienne: Martha

[00:08:15] Jane: oh, sorry. The

[00:08:16] Etienne: is the one with

[00:08:17] Jane: Martha was endometriosis. Thank you for

[00:08:19] Etienne: Oh, you're welcome. And Daisy's my ex-roommate, so yeah, I lived with her for years. Yeah, so that's probably the ultimate ghosting situation actually, of you're dating somebody for years, you moved to another state to be with that person, and then you get broken up with years later via a text and then blocked and ghost.

[00:08:39] Jane: Oh my gosh, no.

[00:08:41] Heidi: I will say I've only been ghosted by people that were only in my life for a few months, so yeah, it's just unfortunate that people choose to go that route instead of having the conversation with someone like, Hey, this is why, and you just get some closure out of it.

[00:08:57] Heidi: Yeah. Especially when it's a friend, like you're spending so much time with this friend and then

[00:09:02] Etienne: happened to you, right? You had some, you had a

[00:09:03] Etienne: friend that goes to you, didn't you?

[00:09:05] Heidi: Yeah. The only thing I could come up with was the other women in the veterans group. Just didn't like me, 'cause I was very outspoken on my viewpoints on some political stuff and they weren't having it.

[00:09:20] Heidi: But I think that was her long time friend group and so she had to cut me out, but it could have been

[00:09:26] Etienne: have just been a, quick explanation. It didn't have to be a ghosting.

[00:09:31] Heidi: Ghosting

[00:09:32] Etienne: literally like you were texting her and she just would never respond again? Is that how it happened with her?

[00:09:37] Heidi: Yeah.

[00:09:38] Etienne: Okay. And.

[00:09:38] Jane: I think

[00:09:39] Heidi: And it was wild. We were talking before this big veterans trip that they all went on and then nothing after that. I had talked to her right before she left and then nothing.

[00:09:50] Etienne: Damn.

[00:09:50] Heidi: It was wild.

[00:09:51] Jane: It's hard to have a conversation with someone that, it's like a breakup conversation,

[00:09:55] Etienne: it is.

[00:09:56] Jane: and instead of having that difficult conversation, ghosting is just the easy way out of like, and scene. I mean, I think it's definitely justified sometimes, uh,

[00:10:05] Heidi: Oh, yeah. If there's abuse going on or something like that, yeah.

[00:10:09] Jane: a hundred percent,

[00:10:10] Heidi: ghost a lot. Or if they're just assholes or getting weird. Yeah. More power to you.

[00:10:16] Etienne: I,

[00:10:17] Heidi: But yeah, if, if there's like genuine friendship going on, like,

[00:10:20] Etienne: That's way different. And you're friends for how long, when this happened?

[00:10:23] Heidi: Probably a year.

[00:10:24] Etienne: Okay.

[00:10:25] Heidi: Yeah, I would say a year. Yeah. It was a bummer.

[00:10:29] Etienne: That's so weird. That sucks.

[00:10:31] Heidi: And what was wild that she talked about finally sleeping with some best friend of hers. Like he had been hounding her for years, and when they finally had sex, he ghosted her and she I thought that was the worst. Like that was one of her big stories. That was the worst thing ever. And

[00:10:47] Etienne: And then she did it to somebody else. Are you fucking kidding me? What?

[00:10:52] Heidi: I know. That's why I was like, okay.

[00:10:55] Etienne: she is gonna, it's gonna, I believe in karma, so

[00:10:59] Heidi: I know

[00:11:00] Etienne: I think it's gonna happen to her again.

[00:11:02] Heidi: Maybe it's Mo that she's just not aware that she does it too. I don't know.

[00:11:06] Etienne: How long was she best friends with that dude? And how high school is he that he's gonna sleep with her after being her friend for how long and then you ghost her.

[00:11:13] Heidi: like years.

[00:11:14] Etienne: your mind. She knows where he lives, right? I mean, they're best friends. She must know where he lives. You can't really ghost somebody where they can be knocking on your door, you know? That's ridiculous.

[00:11:26] Heidi: Yeah. Crazy. And I saw another YouTube video on ghosting, and it was all neurodivergent or, adults with autism. And they said sometimes they accidentally ghost

[00:11:39] Etienne: How do you, how does that happen exactly. They just forget to, they, they read the text, but they're like, I'll respond later and then

[00:11:45] Heidi: yeah. And then they just forget. And then if that person doesn't reach out again, like

[00:11:50] Etienne: Oh, then that's the end of the relationship.

[00:11:52] Heidi: That's the end of the relationship. And, they had discussed a couple times where they accidentally ghosted someone and it ended the friendship and I'm like,

[00:12:00] Etienne: God.

[00:12:01] Heidi: so maybe you know, if someone does ghost you, like maybe, you know, text them a few times just in case

[00:12:08] Etienne: Well, I.

[00:12:08] Heidi: it could be something like that.

[00:12:10] Etienne: I guess in a way I kind of ghosted that guy that we were talking about. Remember I told you the one that I, maybe I'll fly him out or whatever. Not that he knows anything about an invitation, but he, he continually text me or would call me. He would text me first to make sure he could call me.

[00:12:25] Etienne: But, we had a, still a friendship after the relationship was not, we were never in a relationship, you know what I mean? And after the sexual part was over, yeah, we kept a friendship going. But, since I was really in the meat of my relationship with my ex-boyfriend at the time, that's when I started feeling uncomfortable about talking to him, because it always would come around to, he would just tell me about his sex life.

[00:12:47] Etienne: And I wouldn't give back because I didn't feel that's right. When you're in a relationship to talk about that with another man. Like a woman, yes. It's not, you know, unless I was lesbian, then I'd be like, no, I can't talk to, you know, there's just a certain thing when you're talking about it with like the opposite or the person that you would be attracted to or you are attracted to.

[00:13:04] Etienne: So, he'd text me like, Happy Birthday or Happy New Year, and I just let them just sit there. So I guess that in a way I did kind of ghost him, but I feel like I could just be like, Hey, how's it going? Sorry I haven't, and I'm sure, well, I'm not sure, but maybe he would forgive me and, you know, start up again with a relation or friendship.

[00:13:24] Heidi: And that's what this neuro divergent person was talking about. They said that they had other neuro divergent friends and they would ghost each other and they would like come back to the friendship

[00:13:33] Etienne: and you can be like, fine,

[00:13:34] Heidi: nothing ever

[00:13:34] Heidi: happened. Yeah, it was nothing. Yeah. Nobody was mad. They were just like, we're cool. Like, we just talk once a year. That's fine. So, I bet he'd be the same way.

[00:13:43] Etienne: That's kind of like me and my brother. We talk about once every two years like, fine.

[00:13:48] Jane: Just feel like you still there. Cool.

[00:13:50] Etienne: still alive. Alright, cool. Alright. I'm good. Yeah, we're fine at the end of conversation.

[00:13:55] Heidi: Yeah.

[00:13:57] Etienne: Oh

[00:13:57] Heidi: Call you in a couple years.

[00:13:59] Etienne: It's like, dude, you're gonna be 50 in a year. I'll call you then. Have a long

[00:14:04] Jane: wow.

[00:14:05] Etienne: I know it's bad, right? Hmm.

[00:14:08] Jane: It's, no, it's not real. Every relationship is different. And I think that as long as the other people, the people on the receiving end of the communication or non-communication are okay with it, I think nobody has an issue with it. And I think that that's why ghosting is just so befuddling to people is because we don't want to be ghosted, right? We're just like, wait a second. We had some kind of connection to each other and now poof. And I think that it's just can be perceived as disrespectful. And Heidi, to your point earlier about like just people just want closure. And so I will have to say that I'm gonna toot my own horn here for a hot second.

[00:14:46] Jane: And to say that I've never ghosted somebody because I will tell the person why I am going to no longer talk to them. And then even though it's really hard to have that conversation, and I think it's just because there've been circumstances in my life periodically that have just warranted a breaking off with somebody.

[00:15:06] Jane: And I wanted to make sure that it stuck. And this is before the proliferation of technology, right? I'm like, I just need you to know that I just don't wanna have this relationship with you anymore. This is why. So please, just, that's enough of you in my life. You know? Because I've had people that I'm like, wish that I could just get outta my life that I couldn't.

[00:15:22] Jane: So if I had the opportunity to take the power in that circumstance and be like, you who were my friends are no longer going to be my friend going forward because you lie and you're late all the time. And it makes me feel disrespected. And I've brought it up to you a bunch of

[00:15:38] Etienne: Oh wait, this sounds like the New York friend. Is that the New York friend? Was that the New York friend? The one that was late all the time?

[00:15:43] Jane: Yes, and I just broke up with her as a friend, so I could have just been like, all right, I'm never gonna return her phone calls, or I'm gonna pretend to be busy all the time.

[00:15:53] Jane: I feel like that kind of evasive behavior can become exhausting and also

[00:15:57] Etienne: is kind of passive aggressive, which ghosting is too, and now that you pointed it out, it is passive aggressive to ghost somebody. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

[00:16:05] Jane: the bandaid off. Now, listen, I don't do it right away. Sometimes I'm like, all right, can I tolerate this behavior or not? So for me, like it was about, I'm gonna set a boundary of I don't wanna be treated like this by this person anymore. I don't think that they can change their pattern of behavior, and they have demonstrated that they're likely not capable of it. And so I'm done. And in order to make sure that I'm protecting myself from that person, their behavior, I just have to just straight up say it, which sucks to do. But come on,

[00:16:36] Etienne: Yeah, but you're, you're actually.

[00:16:37] Jane: girl pants on and do it,

[00:16:38] Etienne: them. Like whenever we tell somebody why we can't be a part of their lives anymore, that is an opportunity for them to listen and learn. And if they wanna do something about it, they can do something about it or not. Like that's their choice, but at least they have the knowledge now. 

[00:16:55] Jane: A hundred percent because I've only been ghosted once because I dated before I got married in 2003 and we knew each other and were dating for a few years before that. So, I didn't have to deal with the stuff that goes on now with the ghosting, and I'm grateful for it.

[00:17:10] Jane: But I got ghosted in real life once and it really, really hurt. You know? I was dating this guy for a few months, and I was young at the time, I was 19. So a few months when you're 19 is like a long, it feels like a long time and you feel like this is an established relationship.

[00:17:24] Jane: And then it gradually started not taking my phone calls, and this is back where I'm leaving messages on a machine.

[00:17:31] Etienne: Oh,

[00:17:32] Jane: Or I'm talking to his mom that he lived with, and his mom really liked me, and she was just like, I don't know why he's not calling me back. Love, I'm sorry. She was from England. And I was just, was like, I don't either.

[00:17:43] Jane: Like if you could tell him to call me back just to let me know what's going on. And then I finally just, I just gave up because I'm like, all right, this smacks a desperation and let's get it together, Jane. So I just, I was like, I guess we're broken up by default.

[00:17:56] Etienne: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:17:57] Jane: And then I ran into him. At a rave and he was there with another girl and I was like, what?

[00:18:05] Jane: And so I didn't see him first. My friend, David, saw him first and he came running up to me. He's like, you're not gonna guess who's fucking here with another girl. 'Cause he was mad that this guy, he was protective of me. He was annoyed that, and he was older and he was just like, why are these young bucks acting like idiots?

[00:18:22] Jane: So he was just like, you should confront him. And I said, I will, and I just went up to him and I mean about it. And I wasn't upset with the girl. She probably had no idea, like, whatever, you know? She was really adorable. So whatever. I get it. We were young and I just kind of tapped him on the shoulder and he turned around and looked at me like a kid who got his hand stuck in the cookie jar, like he got caught, you know, and he just kind of shrugged his shoulders and did the universal, like hands up to the sky, like shoulder shrugged, like, you get me, you know, and he didn't say anything. That was the extent of the interaction. Now granted it's in a loud club with pounding base and tech now happening, but there could have been like a, hey, come in the corner and talk to me.

[00:19:03] Etienne: Wow.

[00:19:03] Heidi: Yeah. One of the things they talked about in another article was how it's a sign of emotional immaturity, if you can't handle those hard conversations, like you're kind of an avoidant or emotionally immature.

[00:19:17] Etienne: I can see that. But also, the article that I was reading where it said, like, I could see the point of somebody ghosting if they're with, say a girl is texting all the time, say a girl wants you to text her good morning, good afternoon, what'd you have for lunch? They just wanna have all of this constant interaction and the guy's like, I don't need this.

[00:19:35] Etienne: Or every little thing is like so much conversation and you're just like, I'm exhausted. Like I just don't even wanna anymore. So, you know, if you break up with her, it's gonna go on and on and on. And it's like, you're not talking me back into this. Like, why are we still talking, like I'm just telling you we're done.

[00:19:54] Etienne: Like, you know, I could I that in that situation, because I've personally never been in that situation with somebody. I've never been with somebody who would do that, I don't think, but.

[00:20:03] Heidi: Mm-hmm.

[00:20:04] Etienne: If I thought that's what it was gonna be and it was not gonna be a never ending goddamn text conversation or phone conversation or whatever, I could see going, you know what, we've only been going out like six months.

[00:20:17] Etienne: Like blocking, you know? I know it's awful. I know it's awful. But I do believe I can see the point where some people are kind of inviting it if they're that kind of a needy sort of like, confident in themselves, which is why they need the constant attention. You know? 

[00:20:34] Jane: So maybe that one last text and then the block 

[00:20:36] Jane: of like, this is that, that that's what that guy did like to Daisy.

[00:20:41] Jane: difficult for me to write, but,

[00:20:43] Etienne: you shoulda have at least let her one text back one text back before, you know, in Daisy's situation, like, that's just not cool. But yeah, no, you're right. One text, at least he could have ghosted her completely. He at least did give her a sayonara text, you Yeah.

[00:20:57] Jane: Yeah. Bye-bye. Over and out.

[00:20:59] Etienne: Shit. If I knew about ghosting back when I first was dating, after my ex-husband, I literally had the situation happen on the very first date that I went on, oh no, it was the second date, the second date that I went on from my Tinder matchups.

[00:21:13] Etienne: And, when I told him that I wasn't going to be meeting him again. He was not letting go. He was not letting go and he was being totally rude and sexual and overly sexual. And I'm like, I don't care what you wanna do to me. It doesn't matter what you wanna do to me, it's not happening. Like there, I'm telling you it's done.

[00:21:32] Etienne: Why are we still talk? Like I, so I literally had a conversation, like I'm talking about with a person I didn't know. I literally went, I spent like two hours with him and he's acting like we were getting married or something. Like what?

[00:21:44] Heidi: Yeah. There's a couple people like that I've been in text exchanges with where they're arguing about it. It's like, n

[00:21:50] Etienne: Like, is this gonna work? Why are you thinking this is gonna work? Like in what universe? Are you gonna say this to a woman? And she's like, oh, sorry. Yeah, no, I take it back. Um, I totally, can we get married like

[00:22:01] Heidi: You convinced me.

[00:22:02] Jane: Uh. See, now you guys make me feel like I need to be in defensive ghosting. 'cause you're like, yeah, that's too, no, because that's like energy vampire stuff where you're like, all right, I can't even, I

[00:22:13] Heidi: but see, that's not, that's not real ghosting though.

[00:22:15] Etienne: Oh, no. This is where I

[00:22:16] Heidi: you tell them you're,

[00:22:17] Etienne: if I'd known about ghosting. See, that's what I would've done. If I knew about blocking and ghosting back with

[00:22:23] Heidi: but you'd still, you still

[00:22:25] Etienne: still would've said no and let him respond. And maybe I'd

[00:22:28] Heidi: So that's not real

[00:22:29] Etienne: but I would've been, I would've let a little back and forth. Literally, not this, this con, this text conversation went on for an hour. An hour, I would've let this end. Like I would've been like, that's it. Blocking. Like done.

[00:22:42] Heidi: Yeah. Yeah. But ghosting is all about like nothing. Like one minute you have a relationship. The next,

[00:22:50] Etienne: but okay. Again, in defense of ghosting though, if I had known this guy was gonna be like this, then ghosting would've been appropriate from the beginning. You know, if I had known him at all, which I didn't, I knew him for two hours. I don't know what you're like, you know?

[00:23:02] Heidi: But hopefully if he is like that, you're, you don't get

[00:23:06] Etienne: Which is also, yeah, which is also why he is single in 39. At least he was at the time, so single in 39. I wonder why you're single in 39, you know? And he doesn't wanna be single. And you know, this is because you act like a child, which would be good for our next episode.

[00:23:25] Jane: Yes, adults acting like children. Stay tuned. But yeah, I am empathetic to people navigating the dating landscape right now. So I apologize for myself righteous tone there and saying like, I always get, because I could see it. If I'm getting the barrage of unsolicited dick pics and weirdos being super needy over text when we've maybe had coffee and now you act like you own me.

[00:23:48] Jane: I think that I would be like, you know what, I cannot, I just cannot give any energy to this. And especially if I was doing it like in round two, where I've already been married and then God forbid, I'm out in the scene again and I'm just like, have like so many less fucks to give I did the first time around with the dating scene. I'd be like, um, no

[00:24:06] Etienne: Yeah, I feel

[00:24:07] Etienne: like 

[00:24:07] Jane: I could maybe see me doing it 

[00:24:08] Etienne: I can feel myself, like I was much more forgiving before post-marriage, but now post long-term relationship. So now I've done both. I can see myself giving very, very little fucks and people are gonna get the ax so fast. Like it's just gonna be like, be on your best behavior because like, I'm gonna take any little red flag, any just gone.

[00:24:32] Etienne: I'm not gonna ghost you, but I will be gone. I mean, that was the thing, like when I was dating the first time around, before I met my ex-boyfriend, I would tell them, they would ask, oh, can we go out again? I'm like. No, like,

[00:24:44] Jane: It's not gonna

[00:24:44] Etienne: gonna happen. I'm sorry. Like, you know, and then usually they would just let it go, but sometimes they'd want reasons. And if I had reasons, you know, I mean, I always had a reason. Sorry. There's always a reason. 'cause it's usually these guys would be somebody who I might have slept with actually. And usually that means they were terrible in bed if I didn't wanna see them again.

[00:25:02] Etienne: So, um, yeah, then I would give them, like, I'd try to be nice about it. But still have like the nice truth of, yeah, I just don't think we're meshing sexually or, you know, if we didn't have sex, then from his point of view, we had a great date. And I was like, no, we didn't. I just pull out the, uh, I didn't feel any physical attraction to you. And I'm very sorry about that. That's not something I can just manufacture. Um, so. Good luck. I mean, have fun dating in the future. I, I wish you all the best, like, you 

[00:25:33] Heidi: There's someone out there

[00:25:34] Etienne: Yep. They're waiting. Just go move on. You can go find them today.

[00:25:37] Etienne: Like,

[00:25:39] Heidi: Yep.

[00:25:39] Etienne: yeah. But there were some that fought and I did not ghost them. I would just keep trying to let them down gently, and some of them are just really crazy, which is why they were being dumped in the first place, or very quickly dropped, or they were never picked up per se. They were only like, held by a string and that string I just let it go. But, they thought that there was something more on my end and there wasn't. So yeah, they just get really mad sometimes.

[00:26:04] Jane: I mean, rejection's hard, right? That's why people ghost in the first place. Nobody wants to be rejected and most people don't wanna be the rejector. It just, um, I dunno if that's a word, but I made it up. But I, I think that, yeah, you don't wanna be the person hurting another person. Um.

[00:26:21] Etienne: No, that's why I was trying to always like do it in a way that was constructive not mean. You know? So they would maybe learn something from it. Yeah. 

[00:26:29] Heidi: That's the goal of any connection. You learn from each other no matter how short or long that relationship ends up being, 

[00:26:38] Etienne: yeah, I feel like everybody has 

[00:26:39] Heidi: you would hope.

[00:26:40] Etienne: I think everybody has a potential to be a great partner if they learn from their mistakes and know what they need to do to be a better person who somebody wants to make a long-term partnership with, you know? So, yeah. ' Cause we can't be all just taken at face value, or as we are, many of us need to do some things a little differently, like make eye contact or smile more, you know what I mean? Like there's things that have to happen for you to have a connection with somebody, ' cause I actually do know somebody who I'm friends with that has a really hard time making eye contact and it's really, it's hard to talk to this person.

[00:27:15] Heidi: Oh

[00:27:15] Etienne: Yeah. And they're having trouble finding people to date. I think that might be why, because they don't make eye contact and I'm just like, I haven't said anything. Um, I don't know if

[00:27:26] Heidi: Oh, you should say something.

[00:27:28] Etienne: We're not that close though. I just, I don't know. Like I feel like it would be, I don't wanna hurt

[00:27:33] Jane: It is gonna be a difficult conversation, but they might be able to if they, if it comes up organically where they're saying.

[00:27:39] Etienne: I don't know why this

[00:27:40] Jane: Listen, you've known me, you've known me for a while. Like, what do you think is going on? And you could say, you know, I've noticed that when we're having conversations sometimes that you don't maintain or hold eye contact for very long. And I'm wondering if you're doing that on your dates, if that's maybe putting some people off because maybe they're misinterpreting it as a lack of interest or that you're not present in the conversation. So, you

[00:28:07] Heidi: It can look

[00:28:08] Etienne: Yeah. Oh, I feel like with this person, it feels like a real lack of confidence, so. Uh,

[00:28:14] Jane: uh,

[00:28:15] Etienne: that's what it comes off to me as being. And I'm sure that's exactly why it's happening, because this person, I believe due to age and inexperience has a lack of confidence. So that's why the looking away is so bad.

[00:28:28] Jane: But it could be misperceived by other people as not just a lack of confidence, what they might be picking up on that vibe and not be able to put their finger on it. But it's not attractive to some people to think like, okay, wow, this person's not confident in themselves. Like, why should I give them a chance?

[00:28:43] Jane: Even if that's just a subconscious subtext running through the whole exchange. But you could maybe say that to them of when you don't maintain eye contact, some people think that you're just not interested or not engaged and maybe you could muster it up. That might change the game, but it's again, we're right back to difficult

[00:29:03] Etienne: Yes. It was difficult. Yeah.

[00:29:05] Jane: and it's hard because 

[00:29:07] Heidi: But that's how we grow and evolve as people, you sometimes people

[00:29:12] Heidi: we need the feedback.

[00:29:13] Jane: Receiving feedback is hard too, so

[00:29:16] Etienne: you immediately, yeah.

[00:29:17] Jane: delivered

[00:29:18] Heidi: You gotta be open. That's for sure. 

[00:29:20] Heidi: Yeah. 

[00:29:21] Etienne: feel that in the pit of your stomach, even though later on you could digest it and you like take the advice and actually grow from it. But in the heat of the moment when you're receiving that kind of information, the rejection or the somewhat criticism or the healthy, like I'm trying to help you sort of discussion, it's still gonna feel bad 'cause it's like, oh, that means there's something wrong with me, or I'm doing something wrong, you know, like that.

[00:29:41] Jane: I've been doing something wrong. I'm relieved after those when someone's given me feedback.

[00:29:46] Heidi: Yeah.

[00:29:47] Jane: Like recently, and I'm not gonna say what it is because it's in the confidence of my own marriage, but I will say that, and I don't think my husband wouldn't mind me saying this is, this was several months ago, but he said, Hey, when you do X, it makes me feel really dismissed.

[00:30:01] Jane: And I went, oh my God, I did not know I was doing that. I'm going to stop doing that immediately. You know, I had no idea because I acknowledged what he was saying, I was like, okay, I remember that exchange differently. And, there was a gap between my intention and the way that it was landing with him. And I was like, oh no, I gotta fix this right now. So that when I do have that kind of a conversation with him, that I change my approach

[00:30:28] Heidi: Mm-hmm.

[00:30:29] Jane: so that he doesn't receive it as dismissive because it's not what my intent was at all. And, so I've then never done it again, you know? But if he didn't tell me that, how am I supposed to fix it?

[00:30:41] Jane: So it was difficult hearing it from him because I felt awful. Because it meant that I had been inadvertently hurting the person who was the most important person in the world to me. And I was like, oh shit, so I would hope that other people close to me could give me feedback.

[00:30:59] Jane: I mean, like I'm in a profession where people are giving me rough feedback all the time on my performance, but it's harder when it's about behavior, right? Or something maybe about your personality that you're like, oh wow. 

[00:31:09] Etienne: Yeah. 

[00:31:10] Jane: So I think that just go in our hidey holes and be like, I'm just gonna ghost them instead, because that's an awkward conversation.

[00:31:16] Jane: And I get it. I do get it. It's just. It's rough, because I'm thinking of all the times where I have delivered hard feedback to somebody. I also felt like I was about to throw up having that conversation, you know? Um,

[00:31:30] Etienne: It suddenly feel like while you're in the middle of it, you can't find the words that'll make it, like you're on stage or something 'cause they're just so focused on you while you're delivering this horrible, or the information. 

[00:31:39] Jane: The longer it goes on, they're just like, well, this is a terrible conversation. But I will say that before I have given feedback to somebody, and even if it was the pre ghosts feedback of like, because you're like this and it's a pattern that I recognize and I don't think you are gonna change, and I don't wanna be friends anymore.

[00:31:55] Jane: I've written it down ahead of time, so I have scripted it so that in the moment I did not mess up the words, and it's not like I sat there with a three by five face-to-face if I'm having the conversation,

[00:32:06] Etienne: got the guy standing behind with the cue cards 

[00:32:07] Jane: yes, I'd be like, can you just go stand there so I could talk to this person? But there've been a couple times where I delivered it either via a letter or on the phone. And then I straight up was reading, in a tone that didn't sound like I was reading, so they wouldn't know. Because I said I wanna deliver this with empathy, but it has to be said and it's gonna be hard.

[00:32:29] Jane: And I definitely, I did feel like I was gonna throw up before writing it or saying it. Ugh. Or like about to hit send if it was a letter or an email. One time it was a Facebook message. I broke up with a friend over Facebook message.

[00:32:44] Etienne: Okay.

[00:32:46] Jane: Uh, it had to be done, but I, I would see her after. I was like, I'll be cordial after I see you. She lived in my neighborhood. And our children can continue to be friends. Like, I'm still gonna talk to you. I was like, but we can't be friends. And, to her credit, this person, her response to me said, not gonna lie, I remember her exact response. Not gonna lie, that was a really hard pill to swallow. And I cried in the shower for an hour after reading your message, but 

[00:33:10] Etienne: Oh 

[00:33:11] Jane: But I totally understand and respect where you're coming from and, I'll respect your terms. Like I, and it was fine. It was fine,

[00:33:21] Etienne: the best. that's what everybody should, that's the best response, 

[00:33:24] Jane: Yes. And she didn't deny any of the behavior I was calling her out on. She didn't deny that she was lying repeatedly. She didn't deny that she was taking advantage of things. She was taking advantage of me and another friend that we had in common, routinely, by asking for super enormous favors 

[00:33:39] Heidi: maybe that was the wake up she needed.

[00:33:41] Jane: Maybe.

[00:33:42] Heidi: Because you saw a good side of her and so, I mean like that's why you were friends. 'Cause you saw the good side of her. But then yeah, she let some demons out.

[00:33:51] Etienne: Do, you know, I mean, you, you probably have friends that are friends with her, so I assume, do you know if she is? No. You don't? Okay.

[00:33:58] Jane: And then she actually did end up, she moved, so she lives in Texas somewhere. Last I heard. And then our daughters lost touch with each other. They were very close for many years, but I don't know what she's doing now. I wish her well. You know, but

[00:34:11] Etienne: That was a great response. That was such a mature response.

[00:34:15] Jane: It really was. And I actually respected her more in that moment. She wasn't like, I'm gonna throw hands or I'm not a liar. Like, it wasn't any of that. She just said, I understand. 

[00:34:23] Etienne: Man. Yeah. 'cause I can tell you, it feels like every time I've ever had to let somebody down or delivered hard news, instead of ghosting and I'm doing the adult thing, most of the time it does feel like there's a fight on the other end. They just can't let it go. You really think this, you're gonna be able to change my mind 'cause No. You know, like, just be gracious and accept it and move on. Like it,

[00:34:45] Heidi: Yep.

[00:34:45] Etienne: But I mean, I can see where, and you know what though? That article did say, and I'm basing this all on an article where they only had 35 people they were studying or asking these questions to, but, they did say the majority were young.

[00:34:59] Etienne: Male. So I wonder, with today's generation who's so used to texting and not so great about conversations in person or not so great with conversations on the phone. Oh my God, the nurses that I work with who are in their twenties, who don't wanna use the phone to call other departments when they need something and they ask me to do it.

[00:35:20] Etienne: Because they know it doesn't make me nervous to call somebody on the phone. I wonder if that's why ghosting is more prominent, because they're just more used to not having conversations in person or on the phone. 

[00:35:32] Heidi: Oh, and I will say, I read a study too about the ghosting phenomenon and it was a thousand respondents, and it mostly women do it,

[00:35:41] Etienne: You're saying mostly women do. Okay. So mine was the opposite. Damn. Okay.

[00:35:44] Heidi: Yeah. Yeah. But this is like a thousand, it was a bigger sample size, so it was mostly women that did it. And I think it was, they said that most of the time they did it, it was because they became abusive

[00:35:56] Etienne: that's a good 

[00:35:57] Heidi: it went toxic. Yeah. So there's some time like it. Yeah. If you're being abused or the person is gonna go psycho on you. Yeah.

[00:36:05] Jane: Oh, then that's, to me, that's not ghosting. That's like

[00:36:08] Etienne: preservation. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think that what should be called, I don't, yeah, I really don't think that should be called ghosting. Seriously. In the situations where I would've used ghosting if I had known about it, it wasn't because I was being abused. But if somebody, yeah, you can't talk somebody out of like, yeah. So I'm gonna break up with you because you're abusive. Are they gonna be gracious about it and say, yeah, I understand. Bye. Nice knowing you. No, that's never

[00:36:31] Jane: no, that's, that's like ghost thing. That's like a plan of, uh, a plan of

[00:36:35] Etienne: Yeah.

[00:36:36] Jane: like get to a safe space.

[00:36:37] Etienne: mean, with some of these people, they might be ghosting, throwing away their phone, destroying their SIM card and then moving into a shelter. You know, like, like some of these people might be doing that. That's not ghosting, that's, that's saving your life.

[00:36:51] Jane: But if it is ghosting and in the context of routine dating and to the generational point that you were making Etienne, the study that I had had looked at for the fun fact also had a follow up with the difference between Gen Z and millennials, but they didn't have any Gen Xers in this because we're different group. I'm curious to see that study, but like Gen Z goes 77% of the time and millennials just 61%. So I think in that jump of the proliferation of the tech and the dating apps and the whatever, 'cause millennials were in that vein where they came on with it, but with it was just like eHarmony and match.com and it was just all online. It wasn't just like the swiping and just the gamification of dating. They came on before that. So they're doing it less than Gen Z who don't know a dating landscape without these tools and I'm watching them suffer through it. My daughter's in college now and they have a hard time when you're talking about talking on the phone or talking in person. My daughter and her friend group, they all have a lot of friends and that's not the issue, but the dating context, like asking somebody out, face to face, ugh. Terrifying. 

[00:37:59] Etienne: How many of them can imagine going up to a stranger and going, hi, my name's, whatever. What's your, you know, like have starting a conversation with this perfect stranger you're 

[00:38:06] Jane: So positive interactions 

[00:38:08] Etienne: They'd probably rather die.

[00:38:09] Jane: terrifying to them. Yes. So when now you're saying like, okay, now the challenges. You did the hard thing and now you do need to reject them, 'cause now you know it's not gonna work. What do you do? And they're just like, I'm just not gonna ever talk to them ever, ever again. Like, I feel like they invented it for the app, they're just like, 'cause it's easier, it is very facile communication. So you could just like, I could shut it down. It's just a button that I turn off. I turn the button off to talk to people. I turn the button off to not talk to the people. And it's just like, it's that easy to them I think. 

[00:38:39] Etienne: Well, especially if you only talk to him through the app, if you don't actually get texts, if you don't get their phone numbers, you can just unmatch them. You're like, done.

[00:38:47] Jane: They don't exist anymore. Uh. 

[00:38:50] Etienne: And, usually, my thing when I was on the dating apps, I would try to immediately get on text 'cause I hated the apps working on my, I had a really old smartphone too, so it did not do well with the apps. It was just slow and finicky. And I'm like, just text me please. Here's my phone number. 'cause I always thought I can just delete 'em later. It doesn't matter, not a big deal. But yeah, so I couldn't just unfollow them or just unmatch 'em and be done, like the weird guy that I had to unmatch and then block because he told me I could do it. I was like, really? My phone does that. Like I think I might have actually had him show me how to do it.

[00:39:27] Jane: And then 

[00:39:28] Etienne: Not on his number, but I used it within a half hour.

[00:39:32] Jane: That's amazing. I think that's a great full 

[00:39:36] Jane: circle 

[00:39:36] Heidi: he trained you for his own. 

[00:39:41] Etienne: Demise. 

[00:39:43] Jane: You're like, ah, the Ghoster now becomes the ghost. 

[00:39:47] Etienne: wait. There is a follow up final tidbit though, which is awesome. After I blocked him a year later, there's the pizza place down the road that I got pizza from constantly. There were times where, that was my main source of food was Marco's Pizza. He delivered a pizza to me.

[00:40:02] Heidi: No.

[00:40:02] Jane: No.

[00:40:03] Etienne: Yeah, and I immediately recognized him and I look like shit, by the way. Not that I cared because I blocked him. I don't, he was creepy. I didn't care who he is, but as soon as he left, he, I don't know how he was able to text me. He did text me. He said, I think he used somebody else's phone.

[00:40:19] Etienne: He must have, he must have used somebody else's phone. 'cause he, I got a text as soon as he probably got back to the store and was like, we went on a date together. And then you blocked me 

[00:40:28] Jane: Whoa.

[00:40:29] Heidi: Oh my God. He 

[00:40:31] Etienne: And then after that I didn't order a pizza for like two weeks and I was dying for pizza. So I had to start buying frozen pizzas from the grocery store. Then I'd wait till Daisy was home like, Daisy, I need a fucking Marco's pizza. You're gonna have to answer the door in case it's creepy guy delivering my pizza. But, he never came back again. After a while, I felt comfortable. So I was like, fuck it, I'm good. 

[00:40:52] Jane: So I was like, he thought that he got like, revenge of the ghostie, but, you're like, Nope, still gonna order pizza. And I now don't give a shit. So, oh my gosh. That is, that is amazing. So I think.

[00:41:07] Heidi: of scary, like 

[00:41:08] Etienne: it was scary. 'cause he didn't know where I lived 

[00:41:11] Heidi: he knew. 

[00:41:11] Etienne: Did not know where I lived 

[00:41:13] Heidi: Now he had your address and he remembered you and sending you text stats.

[00:41:17] Etienne: he remembered me with no makeup on in the dumpiest ass clothes. Like I would 

[00:41:22] Heidi: and to bring up 

[00:41:23] Etienne: see anybody.

[00:41:24] Heidi: that's that.

[00:41:26] Etienne: Oh yeah. He knew exactly who I was. He knew 

[00:41:28] Jane: Oh, you'd be pretty in a paper bag so he knows. But here's the thing though, like you. But then after that, there was no more interaction.

[00:41:37] Etienne: No, that was it. That was 

[00:41:38] Jane: he finally got 

[00:41:39] Etienne: Thank God. 

[00:41:40] Jane: you know, and 

[00:41:41] Etienne: I didn't answer him when he sent that text. Mm. That was a ghost situation for sure. It was like just silence, just cricket's chirping. That was my response. No, no. I'm not answering you asshole. Like you're creepy. He was creepy. So 

[00:41:57] Jane: So I think we can conclude that some, some situations ghosting, warranted, understood. But wherever possible, if you could muster up the courage to have a difficult conversation. 

[00:42:09] Heidi: It can be helpful for both people. Mm-hmm. 

[00:42:12] Etienne: Yeah. For the betterment of you, you're improving your communication skills. This is a difficult communication skill to be honest with somebody about something difficult. And then you could possibly change somebody's life for the better.

[00:42:23] Jane: And improve the dating pool for everybody.

[00:42:25] Heidi: Yeah. 

[00:42:26] Etienne: There we go. 

[00:42:28] Heidi: That's our show you've been listening to, the Women are Plotting. If you have a story you'd like to share or have any comments, we'd love to hear from you. Email us at info@thewomenareplotting.com and of course you can find us on all the socials. Thanks, and until next time, be safe and be excellent to each other.