Sexual Harassment

A stranger’s hand on your body. A customer who won’t leave your register. A coworker who hides behind “just kidding.” We go there, because sexual harassment is not a rare horror story, it’s a pattern that shows up in everyday workplaces and gets excused as flirtation, culture, or “that’s just how he is.” 

We (Etienne, Heidi, and Jane) trade real experiences from retail and hospitality to the military, nursing homes, and public schools, along with the data that proves how widespread workplace sexual harassment still is. We talk about the confusing gray zones people love to weaponize, like when consensual joking between friends gets misread by someone new, or when friendliness on the job is mistaken for romantic interest. We also dig into the power dynamics that keep people quiet: low wage jobs, customer entitlement, chain of command, tenure pressure, and the exhausting reality of having to “prove” what happened with perfect dates and documentation. 

The heart of the conversation is consent and respect. If you’re interested in someone, ask once with basic decency, accept no immediately, and don’t make it weird. If you’re being targeted, we share what helped us in the moment, what we wish workplaces did better, and why speaking up can protect the next person, especially young women and students. 

Subscribe to Women Are Plotting, share this with someone who needed it years ago, and leave a review so more listeners can find the conversation. What boundary do you wish everyone learned sooner?

Email us at info@thewomenareplotting.com, and find us on all the socials. Be safe and be excellent to each other.

Transcript

[00:00:00] Etienne: But I had an old man grab my ass there too. But like, that's funny because they're like 80, you know what I mean? Like, and it was my scrub pants, like, he's not gonna get skin, you know? I don't know it. For them, it was just like, they were sweet, they were out of their fucking heads. And I just thought, you know. Do whatever makes you happy for a minute. I'm not, I mean, you can grab my butt. I don't care. But like you're not grabbing anything serious. Like cheek, butt cheek is fine.

[00:00:27] Etienne: Welcome listeners. This is The Women Are Plotting. I'm Etienne Rose Olivier and I'm here with my friends and co-hosts, Heidi Willis and Jane Gari.

[00:00:42] Etienne: On today's episode, we're gonna be talking about sexual harassment, which is such a hilarious topic as somebody said. And, my fun fact, is totally not fun, for today comes from an Australian study about sexual harassment at work, and this was published I believe in 2002, that in the retail environments, half of the women have been subject to sexual harassment, and 25% of the men in retail have been a victim of sexual harassment. And this is coming not just from customers, which is a large majority of it, but also from coworkers and management, which is horrific. And, you'll see why this is part of my fun fact for today, why I chose this area. But, Heidi, I think you're gonna be the second person today to share a fun

[00:01:31] Heidi: Yeah, mine was just talking about how it happens to both sexes, men and women. And the study I saw was like 80% of women report having experienced some form of sexual harassment in their lifetime, and then 40% of men. So I was yeah. 

[00:01:51] Etienne: Yeah.

[00:01:51] Heidi: a, it's a problem. And, something else they said was it's often about dominance and control and bullying and not really flirting. It's not like they're really interested. It's about dominance.

[00:02:03] Etienne: Yeah. Awesome. These are great people doing this.

[00:02:08] Jane: Ugh, gross.

[00:02:09] Etienne: Yeah

[00:02:11] Jane: Yeah, none of these facts are

[00:02:12] Heidi: no. No.

[00:02:13] Etienne: no,

[00:02:14] Heidi: What's your interesting

[00:02:15] Jane: I was a.

[00:02:16] Etienne: yeah.

[00:02:16] Jane: Yes. And my interesting fact, that's my disturbing fact, I was looking at stats from a lot of different places and one of my stories is about workplace harassment. So I was looking at what is the data around that? 'Cause some of the stuff I was looking at was like 80% of women, like

[00:02:32] Heidi: Mm-hmm.

[00:02:32] Jane: talking about Heidi, so many women and obviously a lot of men as well. But I wanted to see what the most recent data. 

[00:02:41] Jane: Was and I was looking at CDC

[00:02:43] Etienne: Oh.

[00:02:44] Jane: and this was from 2023 to 2024. And just wanted to see what the estimates were on how many women have experienced sexual harassment in the workplace just during the course of their careers and it was 30% of US women report having experienced at least verbal sexual harassment in the workplace at some point in their career. And I thought, well that's a lot still, so recent, because the sexual harassment that I've experienced at in the workplace was a while ago. And, it hasn't happened in a long time to me. And I was just wondering, have the statistics improved? I'm like, okay, well it's a little bit of improvement, but still a third is a lot.

[00:03:22] Heidi: Yeah, and it

[00:03:24] Jane: and that's just in the workplace.

[00:03:25] Heidi: Yeah, and it doesn't go reported.

[00:03:27] Etienne: Yeah, I mean, what happened to me, I didn't, I reported it to like, get away from somebody, but it, I don't think it went up in the higher echelon of statistics and numbers of people gathering information.

[00:03:36] Jane: yours in a retail environment? Is that why

[00:03:38] Etienne: actually two different. So one was, I was a temp back in the day, I don't think I'd finished high school at this point. Not high school, sorry, college. And I would temp in between semesters and stuff, like in the summers, 'cause I didn't go to school in the summers very often at all. I think the only time I went to summer school was for nursing school. But yeah, I was temping at this architectural design firm, if you can believe that, in Los Angeles.

[00:04:02] Etienne: And I was just like the front desk secretary or filling in for the front desk secretary. And there was one particular man who I noticed just would give me these weird looks when he thought I wasn't looking at him. So I would just catch like outta the corner of my eye and then he'd immediately change his face, basically.

[00:04:21] Etienne: Like, if there was a lot of people around, he would be in the back and giving me this weird leering. I mean, they were, they were for sure those kind of looks where you think. If I'm alone with this man, what's gonna happen to me? You know, I was really thinking something really horrific was going to happen.

[00:04:37] Etienne: And there was one day, this was the last day I worked there because, I wasn't gonna go back after this. I literally called my agency and was like, I can't go back there. There's a guy there that's scaring me. And so they definitely let the place know so that hopefully they talk to him or fired him or something.

[00:04:53] Etienne: But, everybody had gone out to lunch and I had to be there. Like, I would take my lunch separate times from everybody that worked there so that the phones would always be answered. They didn't want an answering machine to pick up any phone calls during work hours. So I thought I was completely alone in the building.

[00:05:10] Etienne: It turns out that man was actually there and he came down the stairs and was just like, I feel like he was just standing there and staring at me and maybe talking to me a little bit, but I felt so uncomfortable. I was so worried that please let somebody walk in. Please let somebody come back from lunch.

[00:05:25] Etienne: Please, please. I really thought I was about to get, any minute now I was gonna get raped by this guy and I just, yeah, I did not go back there. That was the one

[00:05:33] Heidi: Hmm.

[00:05:34] Etienne: Sexual harassment incident that happened to me. And then I had a whole nother one happen, but I feel like somebody else should talk because we like all of my stories at once. Oh my God. What would happen to you?

[00:05:47] Heidi: It's so many. Well, I was in the military. Yeah. I mean, being in the military, it was a every other day thing.

[00:05:54] Etienne: Oh my God.

[00:05:56] Heidi: peeping toms, oh, geez. Yeah.

[00:05:59] Jane: Ew.

[00:05:59] Heidi: Yeah.

[00:06:00] Etienne: toms where you were living, they were peeping on you, at your barracks or whatever in your room.

[00:06:04] Heidi: actually it was in Ecuador, but yeah, there was no protection for the women down there, so it was kinda crazy getting attacked in the radar box by Ecuadorians and reporting it, and they were like, oh, just deal with it. You're in their country now. So it was like we just had to put up with it kind of thing. You know? Yeah,

[00:06:25] Etienne: See, this is where I wish we could just like, well, I stabbed him in the throat and now he's dead, so you put up with that then, you know what I mean? Like what the fuck? Like that's what I want my answer to be. Like, so you're not gonna do anything about it. So I can just murder them, right? Like when they do this to me, 'cause that's not okay. Fucking.

[00:06:43] Heidi: Yeah. I had a maintenance superintendent who I was like, you're in my air force now. You're going to lift as many sandbags as the men. So, required me to lift two sandbags, like the guys were, and that's when my backs first started going out on me at age 19. So yeah, it's what wrecked my back, this guy being all macho and like you wanted to be in my Air Force. And I'm like, dude, I didn't even choose this. I didn't choose this job and I didn't choose your unit. I was put here. I had no choice, but yeah. Got

[00:07:20] Jane: But were the physical requirements different at that time in

[00:07:23] Etienne: Yeah.

[00:07:24] Jane: like there was like

[00:07:25] Heidi: Yeah. Oh, yeah,

[00:07:26] Jane: women and a standard for men. So he was just like, oh,

[00:07:28] Etienne: forget that.

[00:07:29] Jane: all that. Like you.

[00:07:30] Heidi: Yeah. Yep. Our unit was a combat unit, and so it had just like in the previous couple years had opened up to women. So lucky me, I gotta go and

[00:07:41] Etienne: Oh no.

[00:07:42] Heidi: these very, yeah. I just went blank on the

[00:07:45] Jane: to prove.

[00:07:46] Heidi: Yeah. Yeah. Like just, yeah. Hmm.

[00:07:49] Jane: So you had this antiquated view. See, to me, and I don't want to go down a rabbit hole of another topic, but if it's a job that requires a certain physical thing as like, if you're a firefighter, you need to be able to carry someone up and down stairs type thing. So I get that requirement be the same.

[00:08:05] Jane: If you are doing what you were doing Heidi, and you're helping set up these command control centers in different countries or doing what you were doing does not require you need to carry X number of pounds. It wasn't like you were carrying artillery and doing it.

[00:08:19] Jane: I just don't understand why somebody would have something to prove that, but.

[00:08:24] Heidi: And the same dude, he would come out of his quarters with two prostitutes in the morning, every morning.

[00:08:32] Etienne: Oh my God. How could he afford that?

[00:08:35] Heidi: I,

[00:08:36] Etienne: just be legit. Like how seriously, I mean,

[00:08:39] Heidi: he was like a

[00:08:39] Etienne: it Ecuador? Was

[00:08:40] Heidi: master sergeant and yeah, we were in Ecuador, so yeah,

[00:08:43] Etienne: Maybe the prostitutes were a little cheaper than normal. I don't know.

[00:08:47] Heidi: I don't know.

[00:08:48] Etienne: That's horrific first of all. But second of all, I don't know how he afforded that. It's kinda like having

[00:08:53] Jane: was his Air Force Etienne. He made the rules. He was just like, this, my Air

[00:08:56] Etienne: he's like, I've acquisition to these prostitutes. These are mine.

[00:08:59] Heidi: Yes. What's crazy is the Ecuadorians thought that the American women that were there were prostitutes. Like we were servicing, we were there to service the men. Oh, yeah, that's, oh yeah. I had one

[00:09:12] Jane: Oh, they assumed that was your role,

[00:09:14] Heidi: Yes,

[00:09:14] Etienne: my God. So your job was to sexually service the men. That's what they

[00:09:18] Heidi: yes. Yeah. That was our sole job.

[00:09:21] Etienne: The fuck. What year is

[00:09:23] Heidi: It was. It was this, 92,

[00:09:26] Etienne: know it. The 1960s, like even then, it

[00:09:29] Heidi: No, it was the nineties. No. Yeah.

[00:09:32] Etienne: The.

[00:09:33] Heidi: It was nuts back then.

[00:09:35] Jane: We thought at the time, I remember in the nineties, thinking like, you've made so much progress. I remember my mom had this shirt that said, we've come a long way baby. And I'm like, we have, we can vote and we can do all these things, but I re but yeah, exactly. Have our own bank account.

[00:09:50] Jane: But I remember. I was waitressing at a country club and when you were talking Etienne about the stat in retail and just like the stats there, I'm wondering what the stats are in the restaurant and hospitality industry because when I worked in the restaurant world, the club I was at, I mean we all, if I'm just being totally honest, we all, if you were friendly with somebody, and we were all, we were like a big family, dysfunctional and everything. We all made super off color comments and jokes to each other all the time. Collegially, once we got to know each other, you weren't like out of the gate doing it. So to me, now that I'm trying to make excuses for all of us, kind of sexually harassing each other, but it was consensual, it was joking, it was ribbing and it was, context matters, right? So here I am, just in this setting and we're all just talking shit to each other all the time. And it was funny and it was fun and nobody cared. It was. Everybody's making fun of each other constantly. And then this new kid gets hired and he was a kid, he was 16.

[00:10:54] Jane: We're all at that time in our early twenties. But there were some people there that were more senior. And because I was in my early twenties, I have no idea how old they really were. They seemed so ancient to me, but they were probably my age or in their forties.

[00:11:07] Jane: And I'm like this old check at work. But this kid, Jesus, he was only 16. And he's a busboy and he hears how I'm talking with someone with the sous-chef that I was friendly with and we used to smoke pot after work all the time together. And some of the other wait staff and he's thinking, oh, this is how I can also talk to Jane, whom I've just met.

[00:11:29] Etienne: Oh.

[00:11:30] Jane: And he saw that we were just.

[00:11:31] Heidi: Bantering.

[00:11:31] Jane: each other around and just being funny. So the way that this country club was, there were two different kitchens, one upstairs and one downstairs, and it was really annoying depending upon what kind of event they were having that sometimes they would still only operate from the downstairs kitchen, which meant that we were carrying very heavy things up and down the stairs.

[00:11:48] Jane: There's no elevator in this building. It was a hundred and something year old building. And, I'm carrying something up the stairs and he's walking behind me, and apparently he was like, oh, well, if her ass is in my face, I should definitely get a little smack. I knew this kid for 72 hours

[00:12:03] Heidi: Oh my God.

[00:12:04] Etienne: no.

[00:12:04] Jane: He slaps my ass and I am carrying a tray that has food on it, and I was like, don't go anywhere, Jesus. You know? And I get upstairs and as soon as I get the tray down on a thing, on one of those little things that

[00:12:17] Etienne: Oh yeah, the

[00:12:18] Heidi: Yeah.

[00:12:18] Etienne: Yeah.

[00:12:19] Jane: On it, but it's for the tray. So I put the tray down safely and turned around and just smacked him as hard as I possibly could because he is thinking. 'cause I was like, don't go away. Hey Jesus. 

[00:12:28] Etienne: Oh, this is about

[00:12:29] Jane: smack me die. Yeah. And I was like, oh, no, no, no, no. We are smacking you as hard as possible. Like I hauled off and smacked him right in the face in front of

[00:12:38] Etienne: Oh, what did.

[00:12:38] Jane: And I was just like, dude, don't ever touch me again. And he was just like, come on man. I heard how you talk with so and so and blah, blah, blah. And I just thought, I was like, you don't know me like that. He was just like, all right, and then we ended up actually being friendly with each other, later as he was only there for the summer 'cause he was still in high school. And, I had to explain to him, I'm like, dude, just because, 'cause he had seen the sous chef give me a little smack on my butt, but I smacked him, the sous chef whose name was Danny, I smacked him on his butt too because I was like, yeah, because I've been smoking pot with him after work for a year and we're friends and he makes me veggie lasagna and I know his dog and I don't know you dude.

[00:13:16] Jane: Like you can't just smack my ass 'cause it's in your face. What's your problem? So, this is back then, like if that kind of thing had happened in the context of today's world, and some kid smacks my ass in front, like there were witnesses for the ass smacking, and then there were witnesses for the face smacking, and they were just like, all right, justice had been served. She told him

[00:13:37] Etienne: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:38] Jane: My manager saw it, he laughed and we all just like went about the night, you know? But then at that same club, then another time, a grown man who was a member at the club, so not in the context of backstage staff mishaps and shenanigans. This guy would just sit in the card room and have high stakes poker games. And then after the game was over, he would just like drink until he fell asleep on the couch and the bartender would call him a cab to take him home. There's like a regular thing. It was very sad. The guy was very rich and he was actually one of the, I don't wanna name him, but because he was part of a team of doctors and medical researchers, he was part of the medical research team that was responsible for developing the mammogram.

[00:14:22] Etienne: Oh my

[00:14:23] Heidi: Oh, wow.

[00:14:24] Jane: technology. Yeah. So I was always just had this great respect and deference to him because I was like, oh man, this guy was behind the technology that might save my life someday. And other people that I know and love, right? So this was really disappointing

[00:14:37] Etienne: Oh my God.

[00:14:38] Jane: and I thought, oh, how sad that this doctor is also an alcoholic. And he would just fall asleep every night on the couch. But he was really drunk one time, and this is in the middle of a card game, and they only had the younger female waitresses work in the card room. The card room was a men's only environment.

[00:14:56] Jane: It was attached to the men's locker room of the club. So there's no women allowed in the card room unless you were a young, cute waitress. So here I am, doing this and he just kept making really gross jokes in front of me and I am not, I just, that's why I wanna tell the Jesus story first. I'm not a prude. I can joke around whatever. These were at my expense, these jokes.

[00:15:17] Etienne: oh no.

[00:15:17] Heidi: Hmm.

[00:15:18] Jane: I was just like, all right. I'm like, I don't wanna make a scene. Because my uncle was a current member of that club, when I was younger. My grand father was a member of that club, and they had won golf tournaments and it was up on the, you know, I see my last name is up on the wall because my family has a history with this club.

[00:15:36] Jane: I was a poor student. I'm not a member of the club. I'm waiting on this rich doctor, and I just had to put up with this shit, right? And then he just went too far. And then he pinched my ass, not even like a pinch, it was more like almost a whole ha, like a grabbing. And I was like, that's it. And I had his beer in my hands and I just, I just dumped it right in his lap, right in front of all of his friends. And I just, I just dropped the tray on the ground. I just left the room. It was like a mic drop, like I dumped the beer in his lap. I slammed the mug on the table.

[00:16:05] Jane: I just dropped my tray, started taking off my apron. I was like, I'm, I think I'm quitting right now. Right now. I just walked out of the card

[00:16:11] Etienne: Wow. Yeah.

[00:16:12] Jane: I see the manager and he was just like, what just happened? I was like, I need to talk to you. And I was like, I either am never going back in that card room again, or I'm quitting. And he was like, what happened? And I told him what happened. And he was like, oh, oh, oh. He's like, well, he's one of our, the immediate thing is like, he's one of like our most revered members and blah, blah, blah, and we don't wanna cause a scene. And I'm like, dude. He's like, he's gonna complain.

[00:16:34] Jane: And I'm like, let him complain. I'm like, I'm telling you right now, these are the choices. I'm either never going back in that card room again, or I'm quitting. And then I did use the fact that my uncle was a member, and I was like, and if you don't honor it, this request, I'll definitely tell my uncle the reason that I'm quitting, was just like, all right, all right. Right. You never have to go back in the card room again.

[00:16:51] Etienne: I can't believe you would actually think that it would be okay to force you to go back in there again after that.

[00:16:56] Heidi: Yes.

[00:16:57] Etienne: it's a

[00:16:57] Jane: just like, I don't wanna ever see this dude again.

[00:16:59] Etienne: and I'm sure this still happens even to today, but Jesus Christ, people, I just,

[00:17:04] Jane: Yeah, that was in 1995. you know,

[00:17:07] Etienne: yeah. Well,

[00:17:08] Heidi: Yeah, I, there's a lot of things that we all put up with, so I wanna hear more

[00:17:13] Etienne: So I was working for six months at Harris Teeter before I decided to go back into nursing again. And, Harris Teeter is a grocery store in case you don't have Harris Teeter where you are. But, they want you to be friendly and attractive and smile and make eye contact, which is what I do as a person anyway in whatever situation I'm in. And, there were people who were overly friendly, but, I don't think they misunderstood that I was just doing my job and being friendly because it's my job and I wouldn't be friendly to every man that walks by me in the real world. That's not me. I mean, I will smile to some, but I'm not gonna like, hi, how are you today?

[00:17:53] Etienne: You know, like, what, whatever. That's a little over the top. I wasn't that bad. Um, but yeah, there was this one older man, I do think he was in his late sixties, early seventies. And I did work there at Harris Teeter over a summer and a fall, and a spring. I think. I think I hit three seasons there and he would, I don't remember if he always wore cargo shorts or he had these dirty pants, but everything looked dirty, by the way. He always had this white, nasty wifebeater that looked like he slept in it for a week and just got stuff on it and just stains, what have you. And he would look for me. I could have a really, really long line and somebody behind me could have nobody in line.

[00:18:33] Etienne: He would get to the end of my line. He did not care. And he would just be leering at me the whole time, waiting till he got up to see me. And then when I was actually taking care of him and checking out his groceries, he would just talk and talk and ask me questions about myself and I'm trying to dodge the questions or trying to, whatever, you know, like this was also during the time my ex-boyfriend got me what looked like an engagement or wedding ring to wear to work because of this man. Because of men like him, but particularly this man. And so after he would check out his groceries, he would not move away. Like he would literally stand there still, not move on, he would just stand there and just wait till somebody tells him. Or like the person I could see, the person behind him would always be like, what the fuck is going on to check my shit out? You know? Like, like I know. I wanna check your shit out. I want him to go away. Like I'm trying to communicate with my eyes always with these strangers.

[00:19:23] Etienne: And um. Finally, it just felt super uncomfortable. Like to the point where I, yeah, I didn't wanna go in on work on the days that I knew that he would be there and I pretty sure I could also smell alcohol in his breath, really strongly. And I'm not that close to him. We're talking, what is that like two feet away from him? If I can smell alcohol on your breath from two feet away from you, you're fucking tanked. , You should not be at the grocery store. I hope you're walking. Are you getting in a car? You should not be driving, you know? And, I finally told my manager, I had to pull her aside. I actually told different managers. I told, I told the daytime and the evening manager with what was going on. I said this man. I will tell you when I see him, he is easy to see, he's easy to point out. I will see him from a mile away. Um,

[00:20:08] Heidi: you like a long break while he's shopping. Just like

[00:20:12] Etienne: that's what happened. So there was that. There was a signal, so as soon as I saw that he hit my line, I had to signal that I wanted a break and she came over to relieve me and I said, yeah. I would tell her that's him in the wife beater, and then I would just walk off and wait till he was gone and I think they had to do that two or three times before he stopped coming to my line and stopped trying to leer and linger and be inappropriate and staring and not moving. And yeah, it was really bad and I just wanted to say to him like, Hey, this is my job. I'm not actually flirting with you and I don't think I should be coming across as flirting.

[00:20:53] Etienne: But I do think that there are people out there who are so starved for some kind of connection and attention that just a person doing their job is gonna make them think that that person might be sexually or romantically interested in them. And that's really sad. Like, do you not understand that there is a dynamic going on here and I can see the part of that Australian study, they did say that a lot of it goes unreported because people are usually in low income jobs that they're afraid of losing their job by saying that this person is harassing me or, you know. What they might not have another choice.

[00:21:25] Etienne: They might not have another job they can go to, or they might not, their living paycheck or less, like maybe they don't even have paycheck to paycheck. Maybe they aren't making enough to survive and you're telling 'em they should quit their job and go find another one. Like when no, people should be respectful. They should know that we are just smiling and making eye tech eye contact because we want you to have a pleasant shopping experience, but no, we do not wanna have sex with you. Like there's a difference, you know? But luckily, yeah, the managers, they were all female managers by the way. All of them were very understanding.

[00:21:58] Etienne: And they were like, Ooh, that guy. And I'm like, yeah, right. Like, I mean, in a million years, I mean, there's no way. Like, I don't care if I'm 90 and in a wheelchair, I wouldn't be going for this dude. You know, like.

[00:22:10] Heidi: Yeah, well it sounds like it was more like a bullying dominance thing, like what they said, it's not even really about wanting that person sexually, it was about bullying somebody and having, I dominate you. So I wonder if like, that was his way of like, he could tell you're a classy chick and maybe he was wanting to knock you down a notch, 'cause he is that type of guy.

[00:22:34] Etienne: I don't know. I honestly didn't get that vibe off of him at all. I'm in South Carolina and there are, and I'm in like the suburban area just outside of Charleston, but there are still a lot of people who I think grew up here when it was a lot smaller place and a lot less educated

[00:22:50] Heidi: Mm-hmm.

[00:22:51] Etienne: sophisticated, and he just kinda struck me as a person who probably had very little education. He probably was lucky to have some kind of blue collar job and he is probably living off social security, the bare minimum signed up for it as soon as he could kind of situation. And he probably doesn't have anybody at home, you know what I mean?

[00:23:10] Etienne: Like I doubt there's a wife, I doubt there's a girlfriend. He was obviously lonely. And he liked my face. And I did not get, I didn't think it was a power thing. I understand sexual harassment a lot of time can be a power thing. 'Cause like, like I think rape is a power

[00:23:26] Heidi: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:23:28] Etienne: rape is about sex, but I think and seeing all the other senior citizens, 'cause I would put him in the senior citizen class, seeing other senior citizens come in there. And they don't wanna walk away socializing with the cashiers.

[00:23:41] Heidi: Yeah.

[00:23:42] Etienne: They're lonely. But this guy was probably horny too. He's lonely and he's horny, you know, and he's taking advantage of a situation where we're not really allowed to be mean. Like, if

[00:23:53] Heidi: Mm-hmm.

[00:23:54] Etienne: If this was not me at my job, I would tell him, Hey, nice to meet you, but I'm not interested in having a conversation. Thank you very much. And just walk away, you know?

[00:24:02] Heidi: Yeah. And you couldn't even walk away. You're stuck to your cash register. So yeah, you're a hostage to his leering. Ugh.

[00:24:10] Etienne: Yeah. But yeah, I didn't think it was like a power thing for him though, honestly. I mean, it would probably be if he cornered me somewhere. But not in the actual situation, out in the open with everybody else. He just had this kind of like little lost, I guess drunken and he smoked cigarettes too, so he was not a healthy guy. Obviously not a healthy guy

[00:24:29] Heidi: Hmm.

[00:24:29] Etienne: who probably is healthy in any of the aspects of his life, like what he eats, what he drinks.

[00:24:34] Heidi: I don't know.

[00:24:35] Etienne: friends.

[00:24:36] Heidi: I think bullies, when they become old men, they become dirty old men. I had to put up with so many dirty old men. Oh my God. Like, my ex's uncle

[00:24:48] Etienne: Oh God.

[00:24:49] Heidi: grandmother's sister's husband would grab ass me like. Tickle me. Oh, grabbing me and,

[00:24:55] Jane: What, like at holidays, like Happy Thanksgiving. Let me grab your ass.

[00:24:59] Heidi: yes. And everybody would be like, oh, that's just George. Like ex. Yeah. And I had to put up with it. I'm like, I am being assaulted and fondled.

[00:25:09] Etienne: Jesus

[00:25:09] Heidi: It was, yeah, it was terrible. I hated going over there. And when he died, his widow was just so relieved. You could tell,

[00:25:16] Etienne: Oh my

[00:25:16] Heidi: I think he was a bully to her behind closed doors, was like Mr. Amicable, but yeah, total bully. Yeah. Not, not, yeah.

[00:25:25] Etienne: Christ.

[00:25:26] Heidi: great. Yeah. Molesting me basically, when we go up to New York and visit them. I 

[00:25:31] Jane: People like, oh, that he's, that's just George.

[00:25:33] Heidi: Yeah. Oh, just

[00:25:34] Jane: stuff.

[00:25:36] Etienne: Oh my

[00:25:36] Heidi: Yeah.

[00:25:37] Jane: will be boys.

[00:25:38] Heidi: Mm-hmm.

[00:25:39] Jane: Like, I hate, I hate that

[00:25:41] Etienne: I did get propositioned at work when I worked at the nursing home by one of the older ladies who was bed bound

[00:25:47] Jane: by a

[00:25:48] Heidi: Older lady.

[00:25:49] Etienne: To older lady. Totally out of her mind. And she's like, uh, you know, she had been married, she was widowed, had children, has children, or she's, she's, there's no way she's alive still, because this was in like 2009 or something. And she was old then, so I'm sure she's not with us anymore. But, I think she was closeted lesbian and never told anybody. And once dementia set in, she would be inappropriate with all of the female staff. And she literally, while I was giving her meds one night, she was like. Can you just crawl into bed with me?

[00:26:20] Jane: Hello.

[00:26:22] Etienne: Oh, no. I'm so sorry. I can't remember what her name is. We'll just call her Martha. No. Or Gladys? Gladys. Gladys seems like a nice old lady named, so I'm like, sorry, Gladys. No, no, I can't do that. I'm so sorry. But you just take your pills. Okay. Like, just take your

[00:26:37] Heidi: Know the dementia was letting her,

[00:26:39] Etienne: Yeah. She was like, I, yeah.

[00:26:41] Heidi: flag.

[00:26:42] Etienne: Yeah. If she only was mobile and could actually get herself outta bed, then women would be in trouble.

[00:26:49] Jane: It would've been your opportunity to just be like, try it out.

[00:26:52] Etienne: Oh

[00:26:52] Jane: You know,

[00:26:53] Etienne: no.

[00:26:55] Jane: you're like, it'd be so easy if I was a lesbian. Be like, all right. I could try it with Gladys and

[00:26:59] Etienne: no, no.

[00:26:59] Jane: See what happens.

[00:27:00] Etienne: I'm like, Gladys, you can go down on me, but I will not be

[00:27:05] Jane: Listen, she might have been, she might have been up for it.

[00:27:07] Etienne: I bet you she would've, she'd be like, you could sit on my face. I can't move. Sorry. So awful. I know, but I had an old man grab my ass there too. But like, that's funny because they're like 80, you know what I mean? Like, and it was my scrub pants, like, he's not gonna get skin, you know? I don't know it. For them, it was just like, they were sweet, they were out of their fucking heads. And I just thought, you know. Do whatever makes you happy for a minute. I'm not, I mean, you can grab my butt. I don't care. But like you're not grabbing anything serious. Like cheek, butt cheek is fine.

[00:27:46] Etienne: You know if you're gonna try to go through for the middle. No, that's not okay. Or go for the boob. No, not okay. But you can, I'll let you grab my ass every once in a while. That's fine. Like just,

[00:27:57] Jane: Context, right? We're just like, all right, if you're old and you're almost on your way out, like maybe I'll let you slide with breaking the rules,

[00:28:03] Etienne: yeah. Yeah.

[00:28:06] Heidi: But it's gonna be like, you know, you, you know this guy for a while, like, you

[00:28:11] Etienne: Yeah. Oh, I've been taking,

[00:28:12] Heidi: been, yeah. You've been taking care of Old George for a while and,

[00:28:16] Etienne: Exactly. It'd been like months

[00:28:18] Heidi: the first day,

[00:28:19] Etienne: Yeah. No, no. That was not the first day I met him. He's like, come here. You know, like, no.

[00:28:23] Heidi: no.

[00:28:23] Etienne: I mean, he could barely form a few words together. I mean, like.

[00:28:28] Jane: my gosh. But he knew what he wanted.

[00:28:30] Etienne: Yeah, he was like, oh,

[00:28:32] Jane: geez.

[00:28:33] Etienne: it was probably a shaky hand that barely like,

[00:28:38] Jane: it's good to find some levity in the, because it's a serious, I don't know, like my other, like workplace sexual harassment stories, there's no levity in it at all actually, except for maybe doing an impression of this guy. He was just, so,

[00:28:51] Etienne: oh no.

[00:28:51] Jane: I don't know what his deal was. We used to call him the peacock because he just like pranced around. But this is like when we were talking about power dynamics, right? And I didn't report this guy for a while because I was up for tenure that year at the high school I was working at, well actually, this happened over the course of a couple of years. So in New York at the time, you'd have to work three years at a place before you would be up for tenure.

[00:29:16] Jane: So in that three years, there was a lot of taking advantage of teachers who were early in their career and making them do all kinds of extra stuff that really probably was like a breach of their contract and would just be like, they knew that you wouldn't whistle whistleblower and go to the union and tattletale because like, aren't, they're making me do extra stuff because they knew you wanted tenure, you know. They really did abuse it back then and this was also in the nineties into the early two thousands is when this happened. But I was teaching at this high school and this guy, his name was Angelo. I won't say his last name 'cause I looked him up actually earlier today to see if he was still alive.

[00:29:52] Jane: And he is, he's 77. And, I'm still salty about this whole situation because he's collecting a pension from New York State and he should have been fired for what he did, and he, over the course of a few years would just make comments and sometimes touch me, like if I was wearing a shirt and it went off to the side a little bit and my bra strap was showing for a hot second, he would come over to me and put his hand in there and it'd fix it. And he was just like, your strap's showing. And I'm like, whoa. And the first couple times he did it, I was so stunned and I was not doing it on purpose. I just had a thing where I was struggling at the beginning of my career and I was wearing clothes that were getting looser on me 'cause I was losing weight from just being so stressed out at the beginning of this teaching job, trying to figure everything out, I think, I don't know. But he always had to comment on my appearance and it was pretty constant. And then he would make sexual jokes that were not funny. And, I had to share a classroom with him for my first period was in his classroom and so he would just stay in there too long before he left. And then, 'cause my first two years there, I didn't have my own classroom and so I just had to go around to other people's classroom with this stupid cart.

[00:31:01] Jane: So I was just forced to share space with him and he was really annoying. And, my sister came to visit and I was teaching a short story at the time called the Interlopers that has wolves in it. And my sister has her master's of science degree in Conservation ecology. And she was responsible for reintroducing the Mexican wolf to the American Southwest.

[00:31:22] Jane: And she's a wolf expert. Like she could howl for a wolf in the wild and the wolf will answer her back, she knows a lot about them. And so this story ends on this crazy kind of, not cliffhanger, but it leaves it open-ended, you would think, but a wolf expert would know like, okay, well what would happen next?

[00:31:37] Jane: I had a group of students we read the story with and they were obsessed with this story, like, collectively as a group and just had all of these questions. And I said, you know, my sister's coming to visit me next week and I was not going to bring her into the classroom because, you know, which she's just coming for a long weekend.

[00:31:52] Jane: And I said, but since you guys are so curious, I'll invite her. Right? So she shadowed me for that whole day. And so she met this Angelo dude and I had become so numb to the kinds of crap that he said to me all the time,

[00:32:06] Etienne: Mm.

[00:32:07] Jane: and then he still acted that way in front of my sister. And then when I left to go to the bathroom, he was hounding her and said, I need a picture of Jane when she was in high school.

[00:32:16] Jane: Can you send me one? Can you, and this is like back, there's not social media at the time. This is like 1998. And asking her really inappropriate questions like, did she have a lot of boyfriends at that age and just getting borderline gross.

[00:32:28] Jane: And then I came back into the classroom and I could see by the look on her face, like this was not going well. And I was like, is everything okay here? And she just looked at me like, oh, and um, you know how you can kind of take on the burden of somebody else's bad behavior for yourself, but the second it happens to somebody else that you

[00:32:44] Heidi: Mm-hmm.

[00:32:44] Jane: Right now, your hackles are up. Right? And I could see her posture just the way this was going down. And I said, to Angelo, I'm like, are you giving my sister a hard time? And I wasn't being funny. And he was just like, no, no, I was just asking her some questions. And then he just kind of flounced out of the room and he had this weird flounce to him.

[00:33:03] Jane: Like, I always thought he was gay, but he was married and had kids. But I don't know. He just had that, and I hate to be stereotypical, but I'm just saying he had, like, he had a flounce to him, so he pranced outta the room and she told me what had transpired and I was like, I'm really sorry. He's just always weird, right? So then after that interaction with my sister, where I stood up to him and said like, are you giving my sister a hard time? He stopped being like that towards me as much. But, would harass students then in my presence, and that's when I was like, that's it. So, it started off with like small little things that were just jokes that he thought were hilarious, that weren't funny.

[00:33:41] Jane: So this group of girls were collecting change for it some kind of club at school where they were like, oh, give us your spare change. And at the end of the holiday season, it was gonna be donated something. So these girls who were collecting the money, they dropped the coins and they were pennies and they all over the hallway. And so they were picking it up and he says in front of a bunch of students and me, he was just like, let it be known senior girls go down for pennies. And then he made the gesture, the universal gesture of putting your tongue in your cheek

[00:34:10] Etienne: no.

[00:34:10] Jane: Giving someone a blowjob. And I looked at the student, the girls were looking at me, you know, and I'm like, I cannot tolerate this behavior in front of these girls, or I'm gonna be teaching them, like, oh yeah, and I'm gonna sit here and take it

[00:34:22] Heidi: Yeah.

[00:34:22] Jane: And I was like, can I talk to you, Mr. S? And I looked at the girls and I said to them out loud, I'm like, I will handle it. And then he was just like, exactly, what are we handling here? And I was just like, you can't talk to them like that. You can't say this. And he was kind of like, have the whole like, you know, like whatever, like what are you gonna do thing. All right. So I was keeping a running tally of this.

[00:34:42] Jane: And I was like, I have to report this. But honestly, I was afraid and I was trying to muster up the courage to do it. And two more things happened in the same week that I was just like, and that's it. So he said something to me in front of a couple of other teachers where he was hounding me about how old was I when I lost my virginity?

[00:35:01] Jane: Like an entirely inappropriate conversation.

[00:35:03] Etienne: Oh my God. 

[00:35:04] Jane: And yeah, and, the last straw was I walked in on him. My classroom at the time connected to the back of the auditorium because I was co-directing the school plays. And so sometimes I would go to blow off steam in between classes.

[00:35:19] Jane: There was a grand piano, on the stage, and I would go in there and turn on the lights and just play the piano for a little bit to keep my sanity. So I went onto the stage and there was another teacher who would do that with me sometimes. Shout out to Matt Candleman, if you're listening. We were there together and turned on the lights and all of a sudden we could hear this girl crying and she's way in the back of the auditorium in the dark.

[00:35:41] Jane: Okay. Like it, it was pitch black in the auditorium and he's sitting there, Angelo's sitting next to this girl, this high school girl with his arm around her, and she's sobbing.

[00:35:51] Etienne: Oh no.

[00:35:52] Jane: Yeah. And I was just like, whoa. And Matt Kinderman was very tall. I mean, I'm a short person, but he was like at least six four.

[00:36:01] Jane: So I was just like, cool. Matt's with me, right? So we just started showing down the aisle like, is everything okay here? You know? And the girl was just not saying anything, but she was shaking her head. Angela looks at us and he was like, I've got it. And I was like, no, I think I've got it from here.

[00:36:14] Jane: And I just looked at the girl and said, would you like to go talk to your guidance counselor about whatever it is that's bothering you? And she nodded her head yes. And I was just like, all right, let's go see your guidance counselor. And Angela looked terrified. I was like, good. 'Cause it's about to go down.

[00:36:25] Jane: And I was like, this is it. This is it. So I dropped her off with the guidance counselor, and then I just went right to the administration and I was just like, this is kind an emergency I need to talk to you about. And I had a whole laundry list. And so they conducted investigation, but then the dates that some of the girls had that were off, they, they wanted to exact dates and times and things that, you know,

[00:36:43] Heidi: the heck?

[00:36:44] Jane: Had gone by like, so anyway, nothing. He had to spend three days out of work and that was all that ever happened to him. And so he is collecting a New York state pension right now. And if for some reason this ever gets back to you, Angelo, I hope you're rot in hell, and I really do mean that. I mean, he,

[00:37:01] Heidi: sociopath, like truly a bully that just shouldn't have been around children, period.

[00:37:08] Jane: But even like people that I respect in the administration kind of, it's not that they turned it back on me directly, but they said, I wish you had been documenting this really carefully from the jump. And I was just like.

[00:37:17] Etienne: Hmm.

[00:37:18] Jane: No offense. I was like, but the climate here is kind of like I'm supposed to do whatever.

[00:37:21] Jane: I can't complain until I have tenure. You know? And just you telling me that like, this guy's getting off on a technicality because I said, one date and a student said a different date about an incident we both described in exactly the same way is bullshit.

[00:37:33] Etienne: Yeah.

[00:37:34] Heidi: total bullshit.

[00:37:35] Jane: So yeah,

[00:37:36] Etienne: Did you ever find out what he was doing to the girl in the auditorium?

[00:37:39] Jane: No, I did not, because that would've been confidential. Whatever she told the guidance counselor,

[00:37:43] Etienne: God, I can only imagine what was happening.

[00:37:45] Jane: I mean, all I saw was his arm around her and she was crying and he said he was like, you know, comforting her. Like, so, uh, I don't know if it was a thing where he had groomed her so that she trusted him and then she was explaining something.

[00:37:55] Jane: But like, why on earth are you talking to a student in a pitch black auditorium

[00:38:00] Heidi: Yeah, he was doing

[00:38:01] Jane: as a male teacher? Mm-hmm.

[00:38:04] Heidi: doing

[00:38:05] Jane: was wrong. Yeah, it was wrong. But I definitely, from then I was like, that's it. Like a flip switched in me from that day forward of like, I'm not taking this shit from anybody and I'm not going to tolerate it in my presence.

[00:38:15] Jane: And, not that long after that happened, I was on a field trip, but same school. I was on this field trip with some of my students and we were at the town hall in Manhattan going to see a series of short stories performed as one act plays. And these kid, these boys from another school thought that I was a student also.

[00:38:33] Jane: I was actually escorting a group of four girls to the restroom. 'cause you're not supposed to let them go by themselves in a big public place. We're in Manhattan, they were sophomore girls and we were going and this asshole boys from another high school start, cat calling us, like saying really gross stuff.

[00:38:46] Jane: And I just like turned around like, you are not gonna talk about my young ladies that way. And he was just like, whatever. And they said something to me, and I can't remember exactly what he said, but I saw red and I was just like, I'm their freaking teacher, bro. And I'm like, I, I need to know who your teacher is because we're gonna go talk to her or him right now.

[00:39:01] Jane: I was like, what school are you from? And he was like, no, no, no. Back off, back off. And I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no. I'm like, we're doing this right now. And, so I just told the girls, I was like, we can hold it ladies. Right? And they were just like, yes, miss a. 'cause that's what they called me then.

[00:39:13] Jane: I wasn't married yet. So they were all like, yeah, , we were on a mission and we all march, we fought, we hounded this employee until I was just like, we have time. I was like, screaming at him, like at the Town Hall Theater, I was just like, you gotta sit down sometime.

[00:39:26] Jane: Where are you going? Where are your people? When we followed him and as he goes and he sits down, I was like, I need to know who's in charge of this young man right here. This man right here, this man right here. And he was just

[00:39:36] Heidi: Oh,

[00:39:37] Etienne: Oh.

[00:39:37] Jane: I, and oh yeah. And I went up to his teacher and I was just like, this is what he said to me.

[00:39:42] Jane: And this is what he said to the female students in my charge. I was like, do with that information what you will, but it needs to be taken care of because, he's an idiot. um, so, and then I just took my students, then we went back to the bathroom together and they were all just, it was like a bonding moment with me and these girls

[00:39:57] Etienne: Oh, that's

[00:39:58] Jane: they were just like, I love you. That was amazing. And I was just like, okay, that is what I'm doing from now on and that's not gonna take it for myself or anyone else.

[00:40:06] Heidi: Yeah. That's awesome.

[00:40:08] Jane: like it all riled up again.

[00:40:09] Heidi: No, but that was like, that's a hero moment, because how many times where it happened and nobody stuck up for you, you know?

[00:40:16] Jane: Exactly.

[00:40:17] Etienne: Well, I think that's a great, great moment to end on actually. Instead of taking it, we obviously did a few times, the world's different now. They really, really tried to make us take these things earlier on in our lives and just shut up and go with the flow and it's like, you know what, no.

[00:40:33] Etienne: And it's not okay. And people are more aware today that it's not okay even if some people are still trying to keep the old ways alive, old ways are not okay. It is not okay to sexually harass anybody for any reason unless they're asking you to, and then it's not harassment. So there you go. Like,

[00:40:49] Jane: Exactly. Then it's consensual role play.

[00:40:51] Etienne: there we go.

[00:40:52] Jane: out there who are trying to like bring it back for some reason

[00:40:56] Etienne: Mm-hmm. Yeah, exactly.

[00:40:58] Heidi: yeah.

[00:41:00] Etienne: Yeah. Don't leer at people that aren't asking to be leered at, don't

[00:41:05] Heidi: We are not

[00:41:06] Etienne: Don't, no, do not say sexual things to people you do not know or you do not know if they want you to say those things to them. No, not okay. Just like we shouldn't do it to anybody else. You know, we as women shouldn't be harassing men.

[00:41:21] Etienne: You If we're interested in somebody just because they're, let me put it this way. Role reversal. Let's say there's a very cute, young guy, cashier at the grocery store. The next time you go, a single woman goes to the store and this is her cashier and he's very attractive and he's smiling and he is making eye contact.

[00:41:41] Etienne: That does not mean he is interested in you. He's doing his job. Okay? So everybody has to remember that and maybe he is interested, but if he is, then you can say, Hey, if you're interested, I'm interested. And, you know, pass him your phone number. He can throw it away or he can call you like whatever. But don't make it weird.

[00:41:59] Etienne: Don't, don't make them uncomfortable, you know, and don't bring it up again if you slide in your card and nothing ever happens. That's your answer right there. Drop it. Don't do it again. Yes. Mm-hmm.

[00:42:12] Heidi: Yeah, it's a matter of

[00:42:13] Jane: End of story.

[00:42:14] Heidi: know, and seeing the other person as equal, we're all equal. There's no hierarchy, like you don't have to exert your dominance and compare dick size, I guess. I don't know what the heck it is that men especially need to, you know, why they do that.

[00:42:29] Etienne: Some kind of

[00:42:30] Heidi: the need.

[00:42:31] Etienne: I imagine. They feel something's missing or something's not right with them, that they feel like they have to show that they're the

[00:42:38] Heidi: Mm-hmm.

[00:42:38] Etienne: in some situation that no, that just makes you a terrible human being. I'm sorry.

[00:42:43] Heidi: Mm-hmm.

[00:42:44] Etienne: Hmm.

[00:42:44] Heidi: Knock it off.

[00:42:46] Jane: Exactly.

[00:42:47] Etienne: You, you sound very New York there.

[00:42:50] Jane: Knock it off.

[00:42:51] Etienne: Well, doesn't that still happen? Cat calling in New York City, on the street sometimes.

[00:42:55] Jane: It hasn't happened to me in years, but.

[00:42:58] Etienne: Okay.

[00:42:58] Heidi: Yeah. I think it still happens to young women 'cause you hear 'em complaining about it, so it's still happening. The cat calling thing. Yeah. I remember the first time I was cat called, I was 10 10. That's what, yeah. Construction workers that were building a house across the street. I was afraid to leave my own house as a child, ' cause I didn't wanna be cat called and made into a sexual object by these construction workers, adult men. It was super creepy.

[00:43:26] Etienne: It's not okay.

[00:43:28] Heidi: Mm-hmm.

[00:43:28] Etienne: Hmm. Well anyway, we should just respect each other as human beings and remember people are doing their jobs, they're not flirting with you, or maybe they are. The only way you're gonna know is to have an outright ask them the question. That old man could ask me the question, are you interested in seeing me outside of your work?

[00:43:47] Etienne: I would've said, Nope. And that would've been the end of that discussion, wouldn't it? But that did not happen. He did not ask that question. He just assumed I was flirting with him and I wasn't. I guess that's the bottom line. Maybe

[00:43:58] Jane: Yeah, don't make assumptions.

[00:44:00] Etienne: don't make assumptions.

[00:44:01] Jane: Express your interest with respect, and then accept no is an answer if that's the answer.

[00:44:07] Etienne: Exactly. Yes. 

That's our show you've been listening to, the Women are Plotting. If you have a story you'd like to share or have any comments, we'd love to hear from you. Email us at info@thewomenareplotting.com and of course you can find us on all the socials. Thanks, and until next time, be safe and be excellent to each other.