The Friends Who Tell You the Truth

What separates lifelong friendships from relationships that slowly fall apart? Sometimes, it's the willingness to have difficult conversations.

In this thoughtful and deeply personal episode of The Women Are Plotting, Etienne Rose Olivier, Heidi Willis, and Jane Gari explore the role of accountability in healthy friendships and relationships. The hosts discuss why honest feedback—even when it's uncomfortable—can strengthen trust, encourage personal growth, and help the people we love become the best versions of themselves.

Throughout the conversation, they share powerful personal stories about overcoming addiction, navigating depression, setting healthy boundaries, improving communication, and learning to accept difficult truths from trusted friends. They also examine the psychology behind accountability partners, why supportive friendships are linked to better mental and physical health, and how compassionate honesty can change the course of a person's life.

Whether you're trying to strengthen your friendships, improve your relationships, or become a better friend yourself, this episode is a heartfelt reminder that sometimes the greatest act of love is caring enough to tell someone what they need to hear.

Email us at info@thewomenareplotting.com, and find us on all the socials. Be safe and be excellent to each other.

Transcript

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[00:00:00] Jane: And I think that there's a lot in different self-help, psychological type of genres of literature where people are like, oh, you have to want things for yourself before it works and sticks and stuff.

[00:00:12] Jane: And the older I get, the more I'm like, I don't know if I buy that all the time because humans are social creatures and so we travel in units and packs and things like that, and you have your people that you do feel accountable for and accountable to. And so they're calling you out, it's much more powerful sometimes than wanting something for yourself.

[00:00:33] Jane: Now, you can't change really until you do want to change for yourself. But, usually you want to change for yourself in the context of your group, your family, your friend circle, whatever it is, because you're realizing like, oh wow, I am going to lose this relationship if I don't change something. 

[00:00:49] Etienne: Welcome listeners. This is The Women Are Plotting. I'm Etienne Rose Olivier and I'm here with my friends and co-hosts, Heidi Willis and Jane Gari.

[00:01:04] Etienne: On today's episode, we're gonna be talking about accountability in friendship. 

[00:01:08] Etienne: The last four years that I lived in Los Angeles. I worked for an attorney, I think I brought him up before and he was a business affairs attorney at Paramount Pictures, and his job was to do the contracts for the Dr. Phil Show. And when I put in Google today, famous tough love incidences, one of the things that popped up was Dr. Phil. I was like, oh God, I remember when he used to do those contracts. And whenever we talked about Dr. Phil, just in general, I would say, if somebody was trying to, you know, bring me onto to Dr. Phil Show I would not be going. I know it was about to happen and he scared the shit outta me. Like

[00:01:44] Jane: It's a.

[00:01:45] Etienne: I know. It's like, oh God, what are they gonna say? And I'll talk about it today, what somebody could have said about me at the time that I didn't wanna hear and I would've been like. Yep. I agree, Dr. Phil. I've totally, yep. I am guilty of that. And so, yeah, I don't really have a fact related to Dr. Phil, but just that he scares me and yeah, or at least he did when his show was popular and everybody was getting tricked to going on there and thinking everything was gonna be fine. I remember their faces used to be like, yeah, I'm on the Dr. Phil show. Like, I don't expect anything bad to happen to me. I'm like, are you insane? 

[00:02:20] Heidi: Yeah. Have you not seen this

[00:02:22] Etienne: Have you never? Yeah. Have you never seen the show? You're in so much trouble.

[00:02:27] Heidi: Yeah.

[00:02:27] Jane: Yeah, that like surprise.

[00:02:29] Etienne: God. Uh, so wait, Jane, what is your fun fact for today? 

[00:02:34] Jane: Well, my fun fact is more of like a fact fact. I was looking for statistics and while specific statistics on friendship and accountability are limited, there is research that shows that there's a strong connection between accountability, trust, and commitment and healthy relationships, like all around, but it's related to friendship.

[00:02:51] Jane: 'cause I know I've done this with people in my life, so the studies on general goal achievement show that having an accountability partner increases the chances of success from 65% to 95%, 'cause it just makes you more likely to follow through on commitments when you share them. And then also that healthy friendships are linked to improve mental and physical health. And the opposite is true if you have unhealthy friendships, and they're toxic, you got higher rates of anxiety and fatigue, so ditch that person. I just felt I've definitely seen that in my life when I have healthy accountability among my friend group for whatever kind of habits or goals that we've stated that we wanna do or that a person says that they wanna do and then they don't, and then you're just like, oh man. But I love you and I know that you wanted to do that. So that's one way you hold people accountable. I think that, that we probably gonna have like different interpretations of like what that looks like and how that shows up in our relationships, but that's my interesting fact, not

[00:03:49] Etienne: I'm shocked that it, it's 95%. That's so high. Dang. Yeah, I mean, they do say like, if you're going on a diet, find somebody that wants to go on a diet too, and you guys can like, you know, partner up and hold each other accountable and yeah, I mean, 95% success rate with a partner. That's awesome.

[00:04:07] Heidi: Yeah. Makes me think.

[00:04:11] Jane: Heidi.

[00:04:12] Heidi: So I, yeah, I found lots, just like what Jane was saying about it's worth it if you work on a friendship, which includes having the tough conversations or having accountability with friends. And it's worth it because I was reading an article, I think out of Psychology Today or something, but research from around the world shows that having social connections is one of the most reliable predictors of a long, healthy, and satisfying life. So there was a review of 38 studies that found high quality friendships that provide social support and companionship, significantly predict wellbeing, and can protect against mental health issues such as depression and anxiety, and those benefits persist across the lifespan. And then the very opposite, you know, people with no friends or poor quality friendships are twice as likely to die prematurely. So it's a risk factor that's even greater than the effects of smoking 20 cigarettes per day.

[00:05:13] Etienne: Damn, that's a

[00:05:15] Heidi: Yeah, so having good friendships where you're supporting each other and holding each other accountability is so important and worth it, worth it for your health.

[00:05:25] Etienne: Literally, every longevity article I've ever read says that you have to have strong friendships if you want to have a long life and health span. Yeah, it's really important emotionally. 

[00:05:35] Heidi: Yeah, so

[00:05:35] Jane: Because otherwise, like what are you living for?

[00:05:38] Heidi: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:05:39] Etienne: So I can watch one more Netflix episode of something. No, that's not it. So I can have one more beer, which is relates to, I was gonna say like the Dr. Phil thing. I don't talk about this in my memoir, but you guys know that I have not had any alcohol in my life since 2009. January of 2009 was the last time I ever drank any alcohol, and that was because I, so I didn't have a friend who was holding me accountable.

[00:06:10] Etienne: It was, well, I mean, unless you count my ex-husband as my friend, which I do. 'Cause he was like. My best friend at the time and I'd had the worst night of drinking, which started with the day, can't say night, started in the daytime of drinking and it went like at least 12 hours I drank. As the day went on, it started out light, like, oh, just beer.

[00:06:31] Etienne: And then the beer progressed to mixed drinks and then it progressed to moonshine and like it just kept getting worse and worse and worse. And I was with people who were just. severe heavy drinkers themselves, so that's not good. And at the end of the evening, I was having trouble walking and we had to get back to the house that my friend had rented on Folly Beach.

[00:06:53] Etienne: And we were down on the main drag of Folly Beach. So we had to at least go like a half mile or something walking. So it my ex-husband, who was then my husband at the time on one side holding me up and my friend, who was so much shorter than me on the other side, holding me up and I was having auditory hallucinations and thought that they were conspiring to kill me right in front of me.

[00:07:16] Etienne: And so they're like trying to figure out what was the best way to kill me. And, I found the strength inside of me somehow to run away from them. So I started running down the street and screaming like I was being murdered with a knife, like they were stabbing me. That's, that's the blood curdling screams that were coming outta me, and they were so significant, it was like midnight or one in the morning when this happened, that multiple people in that neighborhood called the police. So the police showed up and they wanted to talk to me. Other people were trying to talk for me because they knew how bad I was. And when the police arrived, I think I was hiding behind a bush.

[00:07:52] Etienne: So yeah, I was hiding. But they knew where I was. They could see where I'd gone, you know, my friends and my husband and they were trying to talk for me because of how inebriated I was. And one cop was like, no, we need to talk to her. And, it's about, as far as I remember. I don't remember what I said to him, but I didn't get arrested.

[00:08:09] Etienne: Nobody got arrested. He went away, the cop went away. And, I just remember much waking up the next morning. I blacked out about all of the rest of the night, and I guess the night had gone on for a few more hours. Not that I drank anymore, 'cause obviously nobody was gonna give me any more alcohol.

[00:08:24] Heidi: Yeah.

[00:08:25] Etienne: But I guess at some point I had locked myself in the bathroom, once we got into this house. And I said I was locking myself in because one of the guys that I just met that day who was a friend of a friend, like a very good friend of a friend, I was saying that there was something about him that scared me and I thought he was gonna hurt me, so I was just completely off off. And that was the last night that I drank because the next morning, *censored* drove us home, obviously I wasn't driving, and I was hung over on the couch, like my usual on the weekend, on Sunday. I was usually so hung over so badly and I couldn't eat for half a day. And, before we even started trying to eat that day, he said, well, if we have another night like that one, I don't know if I can stay married to you. And I was like, oh, okay. All right. And I think, I mean, I had known for years that I had a drinking problem. It was just one that was mostly under control and it never affected my work and I thought it wasn't really affecting my relationships, but I knew eventually it probably would.

[00:09:29] Etienne: And, that was the point where I was like, yeah, I knew I was waiting for him to say it. I've been waiting for him to say it for years. So the fact that he said it, I was like, okay, I won't drink again. And he was like, okay. And I don't think he totally believed that I would be able to do it, but I literally never drank again.

[00:09:49] Etienne: The way that I did it, I didn't go to AA or anything like that 'cause I didn't think that I could, considering I was an atheist. I know how they pretty much say that they have to like put their belief in a higher power to help them stay sober. And that wouldn't work for somebody like me, I didn't think.

[00:10:05] Etienne: So I just looked at alcohol as like, I'm allergic to it. You know, so if I drink alcohol, I turn to somebody that I don't wanna be. And you know, even today, I really miss champagne. Champagne was my favorite thing in the whole wide world. If I could drink champagne without alcohol in it, I would. If nobody was alive on earth but me, I would so be going for champagne.

[00:10:27] Etienne: I would just not even be stopping. I would go find all of my favorite champagne, nobody, I would have to be alone on the earth. I literally wouldn't subject anybody else to that, to me on alcohol again, because I know how bad it is. And I'm glad that he finally put his foot down and said to me I can't stay married to you if we have another night like that. And yeah, I'm very grateful for him to finally say what I knew was there. I knew what was wrong with me, I just needed him to actually say it. So yeah.

[00:10:57] Heidi: That gave me flashbacks to the time I got really drunk in Vegas with my ex and he was accusing me of flirting with the com. I was still smoking back then, so I was like smoking. I was having a smoke outside the venue, 'cause we were at a comedy show and I remember he was accusing me of flirting with the comedian.

[00:11:20] Heidi: And probably I was, I don't know, I was a big flirt back then. But I got so mad at him. I ran from him and was hiding. And we were with another couple, I was hiding from him. It

[00:11:30] Etienne: Oh God.

[00:11:31] Heidi: stupid. It was so dumb. But yeah, same kind of thing. I was just, you know, in that paranoia drunken phase, like. Yeah. Drunken paranoia, it was bad. Yeah. So, no, I,

[00:11:46] Etienne: auditory hallucination till it happened to me. 'Cause obviously they weren't planning to kill me. That's ridiculous. You know? 

[00:11:52] Jane: I knew that you could on other substances. It never happened to me on alcohol, but I think that it's interesting that it took knowing that you're were being accountable to somebody else before you would then change. And I think that there's a lot in different self-help, psychological type of genres of literature where people are like, oh, you have to want things for yourself before it works and sticks and stuff.

[00:12:17] Jane: And the older I get, the more I'm like, I don't know if I buy that all the time because humans are social creatures and so we travel in units and packs and things like that, and you have your people that you do feel accountable for and accountable to. And so they're calling you out, it's much more powerful sometimes than wanting something for yourself.

[00:12:38] Jane: Now, you can't change really until you do want to change for yourself. But, usually you want to change for yourself in the context of your group, your family, your friend circle, whatever it is, because you're realizing like, oh wow, I am going to lose this relationship if I don't change something.

[00:12:54] Jane: And obviously we have relationships to ourselves, but there's a reason why that stat that I said like, yeah, it boosts your chances of success 30%, like from 65% to 95% because we're that terrified of letting people that we care about down.

[00:13:10] Heidi: Yeah.

[00:13:11] Jane: you know? And

[00:13:12] Heidi: Well that's, I mean, the reason why we settled on this subject was because I was kind of failing you guys there a few months ago and I was kind of in my deep depression and I wasn't pulling my weight. And Etienne called me out on it and I'm so thankful because it really got me out of my own ass.

[00:13:30] Heidi: 'Cause I was just like kind of self-sabotaging, but my self-sabotage was affecting you guys. And I couldn't have that. I instantly knew, oh shit, I gotta change things. And it really pulled me out of this depression. It really did. Like it. It helps so much. 'cause it, it made me reframe it and be like, okay, something's gotta change.

[00:13:50] Heidi: Right. Kinda like with the drinking, like, okay, I've gotta figure this out and snap out of it, you know?

[00:13:56] Etienne: Yeah.

[00:13:57] Heidi: So. I am so appreciative that you guys hold me accountable.

[00:14:01] Etienne: Hmm.

[00:14:02] Jane: And we wanted to make sure that if we were asking you to do something and you weren't feeling up to it because you had a swirl of a lot of different things. For listeners, Heidi had moved recently and there was stuff everywhere in the apartment and just like the minutia of just figuring it out. But also then the ADHD brain and all of the other things that,

[00:14:18] Heidi: Menopause

[00:14:19] Jane: Yeah, it is like you're, you're like it. Yes. Menopause, like, yes. All of the things converging. But even all of that swirl, feeling like, oh, I don't wanna let my friends down. Right. You know, was something that you could say, okay, you know what? I'll get it together for them and then also then you can get it together for yourself. But sometimes you just need like that extra

[00:14:40] Heidi: boost, that

[00:14:41] Jane: Yeah. I

[00:14:42] Heidi: Yeah, that nudge like, Hey.

[00:14:46] Jane: A hundred percent, and that's why sometimes if I want to do something, and I do want it for myself. But I will ask somebody to hold me accountable or I won't ask them directly.

[00:14:56] Jane: I'll just voice my goal. I've been more and more doing that lately with my writing of saying, I'm working on comedy bits that I would like to turn into standup routines and I'm going to start doing them at open mic stuff. And, I was just telling my husband that, or I tell myself that and I would work on it here and there, but then I found that if I was talking with somebody and they were like, Hey, I heard you were a writer. What are you working on? And then if I would tell them, I would find, then I would work on these things more when I had time to, like, I wouldn't allow other little things to suck at my time. I took certain apps on my phone and hid them for myself, they're behind an extra password so if I'm just sitting there just tooling her because it's very easy just to be like, oh, I'm on the porch and I'm hanging out and I have some downtime, and let me just kind of relax. And then, you know, my sister texts me and then I'm looking at her text, I text her back and then, oh, well, this stupid things in my hand, let me, and I'm like, Nope, nope.

[00:15:53] Jane: So just that kind of thing. But I can't do that because I've told a bunch of people I'm working on some shit. Is this important to me or not? You know? So I feel like that, and having this time and space to talk with you two lovely ladies about creative things and things with mental health and this very topic makes me feel like I stay more on track with things because I do feel accountable. Not even just for the little odds and ends that we're doing for podcast stuff, but then also we will talk about our creative lives and I'll be like, oh yeah. Well, is this important to me or not? Let me have something to say in a little check-in and have it be real because it is meaningful to me, but it's even more meaningful because I know that I shared it with you. Yeah. 

[00:16:40] Etienne: Hmm. That's good. I like that. Yeah. And going back to what you said, Jane, about how people say like, you know, if you're gonna change a habit or change something that's wrong about you, you have to wanna do it for yourself. Yeah, obviously I didn't do my stopping drinking for myself, but I literally in my mind was going, well, what's more important? Me drinking? Or my husband? Literally was like, well, obviously my husband, so that's bye-bye to alcohol. I'll be okay. And then, as the months went by, the cloud that I guess had been, a depression cloud had always been hanging over me because I never stopped drinking more than like a few days at a time.

[00:17:18] Etienne: So, I just had this constant low grade depression that was going on that I couldn't touch with anything and I didn't know it was there until I stopped drinking and like two, three months went by and it was just gone. Like it just dissipated. And I was like, oh, this is what life's like when you're not constantly putting some kind of depressive in your body. I had no idea.

[00:17:40] Heidi: Yeah.

[00:17:41] Etienne: I was like 19, you know, like I had no idea.

[00:17:44] Heidi: I mean, it shuts off the feel good chemicals in your brain. That's why my mom, when she finally did go to rehab and get sober for that year, I think it was she had just been drinking for far too long, 50, 60 years, just straight drinking and her brain couldn't make those chemicals anymore. So she was, I mean, severely depressed.

[00:18:08] Etienne: Oh God.

[00:18:09] Heidi: trying to hold it together. But, depressed, anxious, you name it. Like, she just wasn't making any of the chemicals in her brain anymore. Forgot how to, I guess, I don't know, like so much brain damage from it. So it, you know. Yeah. It definitely causes some brain alteration and, and yeah, it makes you depressed.

[00:18:30] Etienne: Yeah, it does. It does. I mean, you might be depressed for other reasons as well, but that definitely is not gonna make it any better. And, if anybody knew my ex-husband, I mean you guys, Jane, you met him, but he's not the sort of person to lay down something that severe.

[00:18:45] Etienne: That like, I'm gonna have to leave. You basically like to go that to that length to say something that drastic was just like, oh, okay, this is the time. This is what I've been waiting for. I knew this was coming eventually, or at least I thought it would eventually come. 

[00:19:01] Etienne: I mean, there have been times where I had like vomited, like the time that I had too much red wine at his parents' house on a holiday. I can't remember if it was Thanksgiving or Christmas, but it was one of them. We would go there for every Thanksgiving and every Christmas, and they were big drinkers and they encouraged me. They would give me all this expensive wine and I would just drink it all down. And one night it was red wine and I didn't make it to the toilet that evening when I went to vomit and I vomited all over this carpet, leading to the toilet in their house. And I was like, this is it. This is when it's gonna happen. This is gonna be the inciting incident where you know, people are gonna say you can't drink here anymore. And nobody said a thing and they offered me alcohol the next day. I was like, are

[00:19:44] Heidi: Oh my God.

[00:19:46] Jane: Wait, so you were disappointed that they didn't hold you accountable after

[00:19:49] Etienne: I actually was, I was like, I guess they don't care. Like, I guess they just, I, wow. I really thought people, you know?

[00:19:58] Heidi: Well that's, I mean, that's kind of shows you what bad influences can do. You know, like if you have poor friendships or relationships and they're not holding you accountable because they don't wanna be held accountable and you guys are just kind of

[00:20:13] Etienne: Yeah.

[00:20:13] Heidi: going down this road of destruction.

[00:20:16] Etienne: Yeah. 'cause I don't think they could say, Hey, you know what? You can't drink, but we're gonna go get really drunk over here. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:20:21] Jane: But they knew that you had a problem with modulating your drinking and I'm wondering, it almost sounds like people play, in various kinds of scenarios like this game of accountability chicken, right? Where you're just like, you know what I mean? Like, they're gonna do it this time, they're gonna do it this time, and

[00:20:36] Etienne: Yeah, this is gonna be it for sure. There's no way they can ignore this one.

[00:20:40] Jane: They might have been like, maybe we should talk to Etty about our rug that might be ruined now. Um, and maybe this is the line that we draw, but then I think that the reason why people, from my perspective, people are often afraid to hold each other accountable because they're afraid that the person on the receiving end of that accountability chat is gonna then retreat from them, right?

[00:21:00] Jane: Because they're gonna be like, you called me out and then they're going to not be friends anymore, right? Because it's a difficult conversation, and difficult conversations can be hard to have. But then, my experience has always been the opposite, though. When I called somebody out on something and, and held them accountable, or when somebody did it to me, if it was a mature relationship that was worth continuing,

[00:21:22] Etienne: Hmm.

[00:21:23] Jane: They thanked me for it. And then we moved on and vice versa. Like, I'm trying to think of, there have been times, well, there've been times in my marriage where I was doing, I'm not gonna, you know. I did. It wasn't anything crazy, right? It was just like saying something that was, that the person on the receiving end of it felt was disrespectful. And that was not my intent at all. Right? So there was like this big gap between my intent and the impact

[00:21:47] Etienne: Oh, okay.

[00:21:47] Jane: of the behavior, right? And so, whenever that has happened to me, and it has happened to me like where my husband's like, when you say X, it makes me feel Y. And I was like, and I had no idea that that was the case.

[00:22:00] Jane: And I was like, oh my God. Well then I will never say anything like that again. You know what I mean? All I needed to have happen was to be held accountable and the behavior. But it took me, saying something in a certain way or a perceived tone, a few times before he mustered up the courage to be like, Hey, can you not do that? It makes me feel like garbage. And then it made, I was like, oh my God, I feel terrible. Like, I don't wanna make you, you're the most important person in my life. I don't wanna make you feel. So I think, if there's real love and respect there, there's gonna be an understanding of, well, I'm not going to do that anymore.

[00:22:35] Jane: And there've been a couple times where I held somebody accountable for something and then they could not handle it. And then the relationship was over. And then that's how I knew, I was like, oh, was that a real relationship worth having? Very shortly afterwards realized, no, no it wasn't.

[00:22:50] Heidi: Yeah.

[00:22:51] Etienne: I mean, honestly if you can't be honest with a friend, 'cause that's what we're talking about. Like you see something that's damaging to them or to you or to something, somebody's doing something that's hurting somebody. It might be themselves or others, and you're bringing it up to their attention.

[00:23:05] Etienne: And, if they can't handle the truth, I mean, they could tell you to fuck off and just continue doing what they wanna do. But if that's against what your values are, then the friendship's gonna end there because they

[00:23:16] Heidi: Yeah.

[00:23:17] Etienne: Respect your opinion and see that what they're doing is wrong or not nice or. Or the other way, like, yeah, fuck off and I'm no longer gonna be a friend because you said something to me 'cause I don't agree with what you're saying. Yeah. So it could be either way. Or it can be thank you for telling me. I didn't realize that I was hurting somebody by my actions.

[00:23:36] Etienne: That's what it should be. I did not realize I was hurting, you know. Which is what happened in my situation. I was hurting him and I'm sure I've hurt lots of others and I know I hurt a lot of people when I was drinking. And I didn't feel I should have felt guilty, I guess, about all of the bad things that I'd done in my life, like in my twenties before I was married that I know I did because I was drinking, but, I guess in a way I'm like, well, I was drinking. That's why I did it. I take accountability that I did do those things. I remember doing them. I won't do them again. I would never do them sober, you know? It's not an excuse. I know I did those things. I would take the punishment for them.

[00:24:14] Etienne: But again, I wish somebody along the way had just been like, yeah, this before my ex-husband, before he had said it, 'cause I was already fucking, what, 37 years old. So I went all those years of drinking. 37. Yeah. So 19 to 37. I wasn't a full blown alcoholic the whole time, but I probably started drinking too much at least by 25 to 37. At least 12 years. Yeah.

[00:24:38] Heidi: Hmm.

[00:24:39] Etienne: But so glad I don't drink now. I don't wanna go. I would never go back, never. Again, unless the world was over and I was alone then I'm fully going straight for,

[00:24:48] Jane: And there's champagne available.

[00:24:50] Etienne: I'm just gonna drink myself to death. I.

[00:24:54] Jane: I'm actually now remembering when my husband and I were still just dating and he was in a habit of, and I won't be able to articulate the exact scenario because it just, it's gonna be too long, but it was like a form of emotional manipulation. And I recognized it for what it was like really early on. And I was like, whoa. I'm like, please don't play that kinda game with me. That's kind of emotionally manipulative and stopped him in his tracks. And he said, and this is how I knew he was the keeper. He was like, you know what? You're right. And no one's ever called me out on my shit like that before and he never did it again.

[00:25:28] Heidi: Oh wow.

[00:25:30] Jane: And I was just like, okay then, you know, 'cause some people that would turn into like this huge argument. And I feel like, sometimes when you're with your lover, your significant other or whatever, sometimes people just assume like, okay, fighting's gonna be a part of it. And then in friendships you're like, no, your friends are the people that you kind of have like this little bitch sesh about your significant other with, right? This is like the safe space and you never have arguments with your friends, you know? And so people just don't ever then have a difficult conversation about some friction that's going on in a friendship, you know? And then I think that part of what I'm observing right now that's post pandemic, and some of it's generational and some of it's not, but the people, because they're so risk averse and afraid of any kind of friction, then they'll never actually, end up having a deeper friendship that goes past surface level banter and are those people your friends?

[00:26:21] Jane: If you can't say like, Hey, I've noticed that you've been doing, you know, like X, Y, Z. What's that about? Are you okay? Even holding 'em accountable that way. Right. and I've definitely know that I've had, my good friends will say those kinds of things to me and I will say those kinds of things to them.

[00:26:38] Jane: And I know I've done that actually over different, over the years with each of you in different cases. I'm not gonna call you out about what it was, but where I noticed like something was off and I was like, are you okay? I noticed that you're not, you know, doing X, Y, Z or like, we usually talked a bit more and the past couple of times we had a phone date, then you didn't wanna to talk and that makes me really worried that you're sad or upset about something and you just like, don't wanna talk. And, I've had that happen with other friends besides the two of you too, where they either like then said, you know what, you're right. And I was like, yeah. I'm like, I'm your friend man. I'm here to talk to if you want to. But it's not like you to, fill in the blank. And, you know, and

[00:27:17] Etienne: Yeah, you've definitely said that to me. 'Cause I have postponed phone dates with you before 'cause I'm like, I just, I just feel sad. I feel like I have to be happy and at the top of my mental game. In a happy, top of my mood game. How about that? In a really, really good mood, and I wanna have a, you know, entertaining conversation.

[00:27:33] Etienne: And when I'm depressed, it's like, that's when I should be going to friends and like, Hey, I feel really bad. Can I talk to you? And like, can you help me see things in a different way maybe, or help me see my way out of this tunnel of awfulness, you know?

[00:27:48] Heidi: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:27:49] Etienne: But yes, I remember texts like that from you before Jane, where you were like. You, I'm here for you. Like

[00:27:56] Heidi: Mm-hmm.

[00:27:56] Etienne: have a, you know, a conversation. Like it's just a quick conversation about that, you know, like, okay, yeah, you got me to do it. I appreciate that.

[00:28:06] Jane: Well, I appreciate you. I know both of you have been there for me in moments like that where it was just sometimes like a weird, like, I think I have a UTI or like, or my head's really messed up. Or having a moment of having cuckoo bananas in my head and I'm in an OCD ruminative, uh, rum. How do you say this word?

[00:28:25] Etienne: Rumination. I mean, I

[00:28:26] Jane: Well, a moment of

[00:28:27] Etienne: But yeah. But how do you do the adjective?

[00:28:30] Jane: Yeah. Ruminative. I think if

[00:28:31] Etienne: Okay.

[00:28:32] Jane: a real word we're gonna say. It's a real word. And then I'm gonna ruminate on that. Yeah

[00:28:36] Etienne: On that. Yeah. You've definitely given me like, can I call you like, this is, I, I have a medical question.

[00:28:47] Jane: Like, I'm having a moment, but I feel like that's what makes a friendship deeper. And then being able to have those moments of vulnerability, but then also then to hold each other accountable for like, when they're maybe withholding something because maybe they're stuck and you're trying to, you care about them, so you wanna get 'em unstuck. And be like, if you talk about it, then you'll feel held accountable for working through it.

[00:29:09] Etienne: Yeah

[00:29:12] Jane: But not pushing where you're not like, where you're just like, you know what? I just dealing with it on my own right now. And then you just step back. But

[00:29:18] Etienne: damnit, I don't wanna deal with it right now. I just wanna watch YouTube shorts for like four days.

[00:29:21] Jane: I, you know, sometimes, sometimes.

[00:29:27] Etienne: I have to put a time limit on those things. Seriously. I literally have to go, okay, I have one hour, like one hour a month. 

[00:29:34] Etienne: I basically give myself to watch YouTube shorts and it's all these celebrities talking on The Graham Norton show more than anything and just love that so much.

[00:29:43] Jane: Wait, talking on the what

[00:29:45] Etienne: the Graham Norton show. Have you ever seen

[00:29:47] Jane: this. Uh

[00:29:48] Etienne: Oh, okay.

[00:29:49] Jane: be my next YouTube short

[00:29:50] Etienne: Oh my God. The Graham Norton show is, so you have Netflix, right?

[00:29:53] Jane: I do. 

[00:29:54] Etienne: Okay. So if you just, Graham Norton, I think he's, oh, is he Scottish or, he's definitely British. Okay. But he's a gay late night host and he has celebrities on, and sometimes you're not gonna know who they are because there are, you know, some of them are just people that don't get internationally famous.

[00:30:11] Etienne: So you don't know who they are. But, with all of my anglophile bullshit, I know most of the people that are on the Graham Norton show. But I mean, he'll just say anything to them and he let the stories they tell on his show are different than the stories you would

[00:30:22] Heidi: Yeah,

[00:30:22] Etienne: Talking, like, giving stories on our late night host shows, they're way more tame and family oriented. His are way more on the outside of things and edgier and yeah. He's so good. He's so good. I was just saying to my ex-boyfriend when we were walking our dog just yesterday I was like, I wish that Graham Norton would be here in America. He's like, but you can watch it on Netflix. You can watch it on whatever channel he's on. You know, you can see all those episodes. I'm like, you're right.

[00:30:52] Etienne: Instead, I just watch YouTube shorts once a month where it's just all Graham Norton, but Netflix has the best of him, so they have like the best of the interviews and they'll actually tell you in each episode which celebrities are gonna be showing in that little episode that they're showing. If that makes any sense.

[00:31:09] Jane: does, and now

[00:31:11] Etienne: Yeah. So it takes all the like boring parts, which I'm sure none of it's boring, but takes all the boring-er parts out and just gives you the best parts of the Graham Norton show. And they're so good. It's so good.

[00:31:21] Jane: Well then you have to hold me accountable and make sure I'm not falling down too many YouTube short spirals and be like, Hey. Did you go over that one hour a month? I'm like, I did. No.

[00:31:30] Etienne: It went, it became the whole morning, so

[00:31:34] Jane: You know?

[00:31:35] Etienne: four hours.

[00:31:36] Jane: gosh. Yeah. That's when you just need to put like a freaking detonation device in your phone and be like, it'll self-destruct if you're on it for too long.

[00:31:46] Etienne: Or maybe it would be like, you don't get to watch this for four months now because you went four hours. Like no.

[00:31:54] Jane: But these are the kinds of things I write down to myself, like, to hold myself accountable to myself. Like one of the things that I do every day is like a little. checklist of okay, like, these are the things that I wanna accomplish today. Sometimes they're work related, but sometimes they're personal related, and I'll look at it and be like, oh yeah, I did wanna do that because it's important to me.

[00:32:12] Jane: I'm not saying it's some kind of crazy, like, you didn't wash the windows. Like it's not that kind of list. And then I'll write down, and this is something I stole from Mel Robbins, so shout out to Mel Robbins, because once Etienne you told me about the let them theory, like I went down a little Mel Robbins rabbit hole, but her podcast is phenomenal and she had suggested this daily habit of just writing down five dreams.

[00:32:35] Jane: 'Cause it doesn't take any extra energy to dream big than it does small, which I've heard from many people over the course of my life. So I'll just write down like, this is what I want. These are the things that I want to accomplish and they're big dreams. And, I've been writing them down every day, and I have noticed that then I spend more and more of my time doing things that hold me accountable than personally to myself to those goals.

[00:32:56] Jane: So doing that is a form of accountability that I do to myself as my own friend. And then telling you guys like then, as friends, so that you'll then hopefully say, how's that going? And then to me that is a form of accountability.

[00:33:10] Jane: And my father-in-law is actually really good about this. My father-in-law is a very, very sweet man. And, he'll ask me like, what are you shooting for lately? You know.

[00:33:18] Etienne: Oh damn.

[00:33:19] Jane: So I'll tell him, and I'll be like, yeah, I'm querying agents. And he remembers whenever I talk to him, he's just like, so how did that writer's conference go? How's it going? Are you hearing from anybody? What's going on? Have you written anything new? You know, he's so cute. And he has books that I've published on a shelf. And he goes, this is your shelf. This is your shelf. Yeah. And it

[00:33:37] Heidi: adorable.

[00:33:39] Jane: He's a very sweet person. If you're listening, Steve, shout out to my father-in-law. No, 'cause he found, I told him that we were doing a podcast and he said he was gonna listen. I'm like, oh gosh. I'm gonna be sitting here

[00:33:48] Etienne: Oh wow. Is he really, is he gonna listen or has he listened?

[00:33:53] Jane: I will find out

[00:33:54] Etienne: You're have to hold him accountable, Jane.

[00:33:57] Jane: Lord. I'll be like, so what'd you learn about menopause, Steve? Uh, I'm sure he'll like, listen spottily and just be like, I don't think I needed to know this about my daughter-in-law.

[00:34:08] Etienne: Well, you could send him links to episodes that actually, you know, he might

[00:34:12] Heidi: Yeah.

[00:34:13] Jane: No, he has Spotify. He knows where it is now. He knows where to find it.

[00:34:17] Etienne: You're just leaving it up to him. Oh God.

[00:34:21] Jane: We will see what happens.

[00:34:23] Etienne: Oh, that's scary. Some of the things we talk about,

[00:34:27] Heidi: Familial Russia roulette.

[00:34:30] Jane: it's,

[00:34:31] Etienne: When do you see him again?

[00:34:32] Heidi: I hear that makes me cringe?

[00:34:35] Etienne: Wait, when do you see him?

[00:34:37] Jane: Well as of this recording, we're recording this. I don't even know if we wanna say, 'cause I don't know we're

[00:34:43] Etienne: we record way

[00:34:44] Jane: Well, we're recording it before Thanksgiving and I'm going to see him in the days before Christmas.

[00:34:49] Etienne: Okay. Oh, gosh. I'm excited. I wanna hear what,

[00:34:53] Heidi: Yeah.

[00:34:53] Etienne: I'm gonna put this on my phone. I'm gonna ask you, what did he, I hope you remember to ask him. Should

[00:35:00] Jane: and I was gonna say, now you're holding me

[00:35:02] Etienne: Yeah. Yeah. Jane,

[00:35:03] Jane: ask

[00:35:03] Etienne: see him? Yeah. Should I, should I text you on the 19th of December? Ask you

[00:35:08] Jane: Well, I will be just getting there on the 19th, so text me on December 23rd, I'll be driving back, you know, and

[00:35:15] Etienne: wait, how are you gonna remember to ask him though? Or he will definitely say something, won't he?

[00:35:21] Jane: know what? I don't know. So text me. You're right. Text me on the 19th.

[00:35:24] Etienne: Okay.

[00:35:25] Jane: There we go. See accountability text. Let's see what's what happens here.

[00:35:28] Etienne: Next. Jane re father-in-law listening.

[00:35:33] Jane: Yes.

[00:35:34] Etienne: This is so good. I'm excited.

[00:35:37] Jane: Or he might just listen. If he listens to the poop one first, we're screwed, 'cause he doesn't think scatological humor is funny.

[00:35:43] Etienne: Well, then why would he click on an episode called Shiterature? He should not, he should know.

[00:35:48] Jane: I would hope not.

[00:35:48] Etienne: And then as soon as we start talking about it, he should just shut it off

[00:35:52] Jane: But he has a copy of the Shiterature sampler, which is like, Heidi and I wrote this book about true stories about poop. And we have different versions of it. It was one that was just something that we did to have something physical to hand out called the Shiterature sampler.

[00:36:05] Jane: And then we have this ebook Flush This Book, but he has. the Shiterature Sampler on a shelf at his house. So he might have seen that and like a car accident that you just can't look away, you know, you're like, I don't wanna look at it, but there it is. And I'm, it's familiar even though it's uncomfortable.

[00:36:22] Etienne: No. I hope that's not the one he clicks on. Although I think that episode is so hilarious. But I mean, I'm a nurse, we would think that's hilarious. Oh, I don't think a nursing shift goes by where there's not some kind of shit story that we share with each other and laugh about our patients. Obviously, not usually about ourselves, but

[00:36:47] Jane: I mean, you need to have whatever comic relief that you could get on that kind of a serious job. Like, I get it. I get it.

[00:36:54] Etienne: Yeah. You gotta take the laughs where you and find them seriously.

[00:37:01] Heidi: Definitely.

[00:37:05] Jane: Well as we're like, like nearing like a like closing out. 

[00:37:09] Jane: I'm gonna ask you a follow up Etienne about nursing stuff. Are there ways that you find you holding your colleagues accountable at work?

[00:37:19] Etienne: Hmm.

[00:37:20] Jane: You're allowed to talk because you just had wish you could see her face. She was like, that's a

[00:37:26] Etienne: Yeah, because I've been seriously, so yeah, I, I, it's hard to talk about. I don't know. I mean, I doubt anybody that I would be referring to, actually would listen to the podcast even though they know it exists. But I am a charge nurse a lot of time at work. So that means I'm in charge of all of the nurses and all of the supporting staff during the 12 hour shift.

[00:37:50] Etienne: So if anything goes wrong, I'm also held responsible. But, one thing that seems to happen a lot of times, I work with a lot of brand new nurses, so nurses that have been nurses for less than a year, and there's some things that you learn as an experienced nurse, especially as an experienced nighttime nurse that you wanna do for your patients to make their lives more comfortable, especially our patients because they live in the hospital long term.

[00:38:16] Etienne: We have patients, like our bone marrow transplant patients, are in the hospital for at least a month, so you want them to sleep as long as they possibly can. One way to do that is to make sure their IV pumps don't beep. And there's some beeps that you can't control. Like if the patient unplugged their machine and didn't plug it back in 'cause they went to the bathroom and didn't tell you and you didn't know, and then the battery starts to die, it's gonna beep.

[00:38:41] Etienne: You couldn't stop. Except that one of the first things I do when I walk into a room is I look at the bottom and I can tell right away if it's on battery power or if it's plugged in and I plug everything in. So, that's one of the things I always do. Another thing I always do when I'm hanging an IV antibiotic, I also completely take out of the machine the tubing, the main tubing and flick all the bubbles out. 'Cause when you're hanging an antibiotic, that's a secondary line. You can get all the bubbles outta the line because another, the reason that your IV pump is beeping is because it thinks there's air in line and there's always air in line.

[00:39:14] Etienne: Like literally there's always air in line. So the only way you can combat that is to constantly be trying to get the air outta the line. And I do it every time when I'm hanging a secondary. There's also medications we put up that are syringes and it will beep when it finishes. So when I put a syringe on the pump, it'll tell you it's going to be finished in 15 minutes.

[00:39:34] Etienne: Well, am I just gonna let it beep at two in the morning or am I gonna put a timer on my watch to come back to the room before it beeps? That's what I do. I do all of these things so that my patients do not get woken up by a machine that's beeping. Well, the brand new nurses don't do this, so I can't tell you how often I am walking around, like literally the last two shifts that I did, they had to institute on our floor because we've had some techs recently and some nurses I think too who, when we have isolation rooms for like c diff, and I know Jane, this is gonna drive you insane, where the people are not putting gowns and gloves on and they're not washing their hands with soap and water after they leave these rooms.

[00:40:15] Etienne: So, c diff had been spreading over the unit because of this and because that was happening, thank God, this is the second time they've had to do this. In the two and a half years that I've been working back on the unit again, they put universal precautions as if everybody has c diff. So you have to put on gowns for every room. You have to wash your hands with soap and water after every time you leave the room. and this is to,

[00:40:36] Jane: standard. That seems like you should always do that

[00:40:38] Heidi: Yeah.

[00:40:39] Etienne: Yeah, that's what should be happening. But it, it's not. So, if you can just imagine with these brand new nurses, they don't wanna gown up, they don't wanna wash their hands in soap and water, so they're just letting the machines beep.

[00:40:51] Etienne: They're literally putting medications up that require things that have like the, the syringe lines that I'm talking about, like that sort of situation where it's definitely going to beep at a specific time. They're leaving flushes there for somebody else to come in the room and do it for them. And do you know who they expect to be doing that for them?

[00:41:09] Etienne: Me. So I have been going around, literally I was so exhausted and my hands were practically bleeding from two nights in a row of all the beeps that were happening. And I didn't even know they were going to happen. So I'm just going in these rooms like I don't even know what I'm about to, why it's beeping until I go in there and I have to bring all of the supplies that it could be beeping for because these nurses are just ignoring them and they don't wanna go back in these rooms and deal with gowning up and washing their hands.

[00:41:33] Heidi: Wow.

[00:41:34] Etienne: Literally, it's been in the back of my mind these last few days that I've been off. It's like, what do I do? Because these universal precautions are gonna be extended through the end of the month. I'm about to do four night shifts in a row. And this is all before the end of the month, so I'm gonna be exhausted washing my hands and handing and taking care of all of these beeps that are not mine.

[00:41:56] Etienne: Whereas my room's hardly ever beep. Literally, I could win the award of like, yeah, who's gonna have the least amount of beeps? That would be me. I am obsessed with not having a machines beep. I swear to God as bad as my supposed 54-year-old ears are, I can hear the beep in every, like, I, I don't, somehow I can hear a beep from the room that's all the way down the hall. I can hear it when it beeps. I can hear every beep in the entire unit. And the hallways are long. They're long and I hear them and everybody else acts like they don't freaking hear it. That can't be true. It cannot be only me, so I don't know how to hold them accountable in the situation. I really don't because it's an epidemic of ignoring, I don't even know if that's the right word, of ignoring what they're supposed to be doing because they don't wanna be bothered and they know I will take care of it.

[00:42:44] Jane: To me that feels like, most of these, I'm making the assumption that most of these nurses are younger, and I'm just wondering if, because of the younger generations we have let children, who are now young adults, be in lots of circumstances where they're not being held accountable

[00:42:59] Heidi: Yep. Yep.

[00:42:59] Jane: And then it's now it's spilling over into an atmosphere where the stakes are high. I am sorry. Like having a patient who's battling cancer, be able to rest is really important. So my hope for you is that you'll figure out a way to maybe work with someone in hospital leadership to hold them accountable. But I'm gonna extrapolate that, to like larger lessons in life of like, sometimes the stakes might seem really low, but it sets up patterns of people not being accountable so that then when they're in certain situations where the stakes are higher, be it professional or personal,

[00:43:31] Etienne: Yeah.

[00:43:32] Jane: Gonna impact others and the stakes are gonna be higher. So maybe let's not be as hesitant to hold each other accountable, and do it in a way that's positioned as a check-in, like, Hey, I've noticed that, blah, blah, blah. So we're not pointing at each other and being like, crazy psycho Karens, and like, yeah, y you did this. Like, not like that, but holding each other accountable so that we can show up for each other

[00:43:58] Heidi: It feels like, yeah, it feels like the golden rule. Like do unto others as you'd want them to do onto you. If they were the patient, wouldn't they want their nurse to do all they can to make 'em comfortable, like,

[00:44:11] Etienne: Yeah. You should see how hard my patients and their families sleep. Because I am doing everything I can

[00:44:17] Heidi: And that

[00:44:17] Etienne: that's the only thing that wakes them up is that goddamn beeping machine, I'm

[00:44:21] Heidi: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:44:22] Etienne: So the fact that they think so little of the patients, and take their job so flippantly that they're gonna let this be their standard of practice.

[00:44:32] Etienne: I just, I don't understand and I, I am trying to figure out a way to, I don't, maybe I should just go to my manager and go, Hey, can you help me out? Can you think about this problem with me and maybe we can come up with a solution. Like there's gotta be

[00:44:44] Heidi: I wonder if there's a way to gamify it. You know,

[00:44:47] Etienne: I thought about that too, even before they had set this whole C diff rule. 'Cause it wasn't a big deal for me to run into these rooms before 'cause there's hardly any isolation on our patients in general. Like hardly any of them are full on c diff, but because of a few people, yes, we do now have more c diff, so, but before it was just like, I'm just washing my hands and washing them when I leave, like it's not a big deal to me.

[00:45:08] Etienne: I will go fix all the beeps, you know. But now it's a big deal because I'm exhausted. Do you know how long it takes to put those gowns on every time and then to then you might not have what you need then you have to de-gown. You have to wash your hands, go get your thing, wash your hands, put a new gown on. Like it's a big process and like it's, you know, and I think that's why they're ignoring it, ' cause they don't

[00:45:30] Jane: I think if,

[00:45:31] Etienne: And they all are, A lot of them are in their early twenties. They're all like early mid

[00:45:35] Jane: Say no more. Sorry if you're in your early twenties listening, but I'm just saying like, you know, there's just like, yeah, this like lack of accountability. So I don't, I encourage you to say something to your manager because then that'll actually do like double duty, right?

[00:45:49] Jane: It's bringing in a partner to think about a solution. And then it also, you're gonna be more accountable. Then, it's gonna trickle down. Like you'll figure out maybe a way that you can play a part in holding these other young, earlier in their career nurses, younger and otherwise, like more accountable because you've told somebody else about the issue and now you've told us about the issue, right? So now you're just like, Hmm, I gotta

[00:46:09] Etienne: Now I've gotta do something. Yeah, you're absolutely right. It is. It's a problem. And I was literally like, if I could just have been their preceptors, I would've instilled upon all of them how this is your main, this is, this is one of your main things you have to worry about for your patients at night is to keep it quiet.

[00:46:26] Heidi: Mm-hmm.

[00:46:27] Etienne: you do that? You know, it's

[00:46:29] Heidi: Stay on top of

[00:46:30] Etienne: Yes. It's the machines. And actually we're having a higher up meeting next week, so I think I need to bring this up now in an email to her

[00:46:37] Heidi: Mm-hmm.

[00:46:38] Jane: Well, this is like

[00:46:39] Etienne: is my problem and I'd love to talk about this in our meeting. I hope this is important to you as it is to me, and it's not just me being lazy and saying I don't wanna like go around doing beeps all night long. It's not that. It's literally, it seems to be an issue and it's gotta be

[00:46:52] Heidi: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:46:54] Jane: is this meeting? So then your

[00:46:55] Etienne: Our meeting is a week from, our meeting is a week from Thursday, I think. Yeah. Oh no. A week from tomorrow. So it's, yeah, it's a week from tomorrow.

[00:47:02] Jane: So December 3rd.

[00:47:04] Etienne: Yep.

[00:47:05] Jane: All right, so I'm gonna text you on December 2nd,

[00:47:08] Etienne: I gotta

[00:47:08] Jane: the way that you're gonna text me about my father-in-law and like, accountability. Like, did you listen to the podcast? I'm gonna be like text about meeting. Boom.

[00:47:19] Etienne: There we go. Awesome.

[00:47:21] Jane: action.

[00:47:22] Etienne: I just made myself a task for tomorrow to email my

[00:47:25] Jane: Yay. All right.

[00:47:27] Etienne: Woo-hoo. So, yeah, just so that it, it can at least be brought up in the meeting and go, yeah, this is something that's, this is vital, this is important. This should not be ignored. Just like we should all be wearing our proper gowns and gloves and whatever the isolation is.

[00:47:41] Jane: Of it, but, well, but I think that, yeah, you've, you've shown very clearly that there's all different levels of stakes, but I think that it's a lesson to all of us that holding people accountable matters.

[00:47:53] Heidi: Mm-hmm.

[00:47:54] Jane: So let's not be afraid to, to do it, but again, doing it from a place of a compassionate perspective and genuine curiosity and encouraging others to show up. Yeah. And be better.

[00:48:07] Etienne: Yeah. Yeah. And do you

[00:48:09] Heidi: how we, that's how we become better in our relationships and life and everything is like through these lessons, you know, learning and being made aware of our blind spots, where we're not paying attention fully, we we're in tunnel vision, you know, it's nice to have a friend go, Hey, there's some stuff over here too.

[00:48:28] Jane: Exactly.

[00:48:29] Heidi: Yeah.

[00:48:29] Jane: Just in my car. I need you to be like my side view mirror sometimes. Help me out. Yeah.

[00:48:34] Heidi: Yeah.

[00:48:35] Etienne: Nice. Oh, thank you Jane, for bringing that up so I can know, you know, be held accountable. I mean, the problem has just been nagging in the back of my head. I can't even tell you. It's just been going nonstop. Like, what do I do? What do I do? This is driving me insane. Like, yeah,

[00:48:51] Jane: Accountability.

[00:48:54] Heidi: So,

[00:48:54] Jane: Obviously, I think we can do an organic stopping part. You not

[00:49:00] Jane: in there.

[00:49:01] Heidi: Yeah.

[00:49:05] Heidi: That's our show you've been listening to, the Women are Plotting. If you have a story you'd like to share or have any comments, we'd love to hear from you. Email us at info@thewomenareplotting.com and of course you can find us on all the socials. Thanks, and until next time, be safe and be excellent to each other.