Female Friendships: Making New Friends, Maintaining Boundaries, And The Work Of Staying Close

A good friendship rarely “just happens” after 30. Between work, caretaking, and the aftershocks of a pandemic, the casual paths that used to pull us together have narrowed—and the loneliness stats prove it. We’re diving into what it really takes to build and keep female friendships in midlife, from turning neighborly small talk into real support to setting boundaries when values clash.

We compare the myth and mess of famous friendships with our own stories: friend breakups sparked by triangulation, political divides that felt impossible, and the moments that changed everything—like a quiet ride home from a medical procedure or a last-minute moving day rescue. We explore research on how long closeness actually takes, why most people meet their best friend around 21, and the practical steps to create new bonds when time is tight. And yes, we talk about gossip: when it helps you process and repair versus when it corrodes trust.

Along the way, you’ll pick up simple tools you can use today. We share our “bananas” SOS code that turns need into action without guilt. We show how dogs, gardens, yoga classes, and Meetup groups act as catalysts to find friends in real life. We discuss having the hard conversations that nurture real friends or end friendships with people we didn't need in our lives. And we make a case for planning time with friends with the same energy you plan work—calendars, rituals, trips, and a pipeline of things to look forward to.

If you’ve felt the ache of drifting apart or the risk of reaching out, this conversation will give you language, structure, and courage. Listen, then text a friend to take a walk, have a coffee, or swap books this week—and try a shared code word for those “please call me now” moments. If this episode resonates with you, please follow the show, share it with a friend, and leave a quick review so more people can find their people.

Email us at info@thewomenareplotting.com, and find us on all the socials. Be safe and be excellent to each other.

Chapters

• 0:00 Why Midlife Friendships Feel Hard
• 0:38 Meet The Hosts And Today’s Theme
• 0:51 Pop Culture Friendship: Madonna And Sandra
• 2:32 The Average Age We Meet Our Best Friend
• 4:29 From Small Talk To Real Connection
• 6:17 Gossip’s Purpose And Pitfalls
• 10:17 Adult Friend Breakups And Boundaries
• 12:14 When a Friend Ghosts You
• 15:36 Losing of a Friend Over a Difference in Politics
• 19:02 Saving a Friendship With a Sibling
• 24:19 When Core Values Clash
• 26:01 Friends Showing Up For Each Other
• 27:49 A Cat With IBS & Cats vs Dogs
• 31:43 Becoming Friends With a Widowed Neighbor
• 34:05 Meeting Friends Via Social Media
• 35:02 Jane, Heidi & Etty Met at a Writers Conference
• 36:19 Having a Parent with NPD Damaged Etty's Friendships
• 37:59 Starting a Friendship Through a Dog
• 42:06 Bonding With a New Friend Over a Gradebook
• 49:06 Using a Code Word To Signal Someone Needs Help ASAP
• 53:52 Plan Time With Friends To Keep the Friendship Strong

Transcript

[00:00:00] Jane: When you're little, it's like, Hey, do you wanna play kickball? Or, we have the same math teacher. There's all of these opportunities that are just organic. And as you get older and life is busy. The organic experiences are fewer and far between.

[00:00:11] Jane: And then the pandemic threw a social awkward wrench in everybody's brain. And now it's like you have to really look for those openings and be very, very intentional. There's an epidemic of loneliness in our country right now. And I feel like, for women at least, we have more license to have emotional language in our lives and make those overtures maybe more easily than men. But I still think it can be hard and we have to really push to make it happen. 

[00:00:36] Etienne: Welcome listeners. This is The Women Are Plotting. I'm Etienne Rose Olivier and I'm here with my friends and co-hosts, Heidi Willis and Jane Gari.

[00:00:51] Etienne: On today's episode, we're gonna be talking about female friendships and my fun fact for today relates to the female friendship that I looked up to when I was a teenager. It was Madonna and Sandra Bernhard and they met in the early eighties in the New York Club scene.

[00:01:08] Etienne: But they became much closer friends in the late eighties. And they were even on David Letterman together back in 1988, where they were both wearing the exact same outfit and sort of implying that there was maybe sexual tension between the two of them, or maybe Sandra Bernhard had slept with Sean Penn, who she was married to at the time.

[00:01:28] Etienne: And then in 1992, their friendship just ended. And Sandra Bernhard's been on podcasts recently, or in the last four or five years, and she's talked about how she's sad that her relationship and her friendship with Madonna ended and she kind of talks about it in a way saying that she just doesn't think that she was comfortable with Madonna and having to live in the limelight of Madonna's fame.

[00:01:53] Etienne: 'cause she was so famous at the time.

[00:01:55] Heidi: Hmm.

[00:01:56] Etienne: But there's a rumor, Isaac Mizrahi is very close friend of Sandra Bernhard's, and he has said that actually what ended the friendship between the two of them was Sandra Bernhard was in a relationship with a female club owner who was very famous.

[00:02:11] Etienne: Then Madonna for some reason decided to have an affair with this woman. So that's how, why their relationship ended. So I don't know what's true, what's not true, but I just thought I would just love to have friendships like that. It just seemed super cool. That's what I looked up to. Oh, but I think, Heidi, you're gonna tell us you're fun or interesting fact about female friendships.

[00:02:32] Heidi: So, I've read this article several times and it's from The Atlantic and it's why Making Friends in Midlife is so Hard by Catherine Smith. And, in it she talks about, according to the Friendship report, a global study commission by Snapchat in 2019, the average age at which we meet our best friend is 21. So, that's typical, Yeah, you're bonding in college. Jane and I actually met when I was in my late twenties.

[00:03:03] Etienne: Oh, I didn't realize you guys knew each other that long. No.

[00:03:07] Heidi: No, no, no, sorry. Thirties, early thirties. Yeah. Sorry. I was getting my stuff mixed up. I was thinking when I got out, but I was in Texas and first went to school for four years, so, early thirties. And then they go on to say the average American just spends 41 minutes a day socializing, and then it typically takes more than 200 hours, ideally over six weeks for a stranger to grow into a close friend.

[00:03:35] Heidi: And so it just takes time. And that's why it's really difficult to, with our busy lives, it's difficult to make friends first meet somebody that's compatible and then yeah, have the time to develop that friendship.

[00:03:49] Etienne: Well, I have a question that 41 minutes is that actually speaking to the person? It's not just texting or commenting

[00:03:56] Heidi: Yeah, I think it's in person socializing.

[00:03:59] Etienne: Okay. Okay. That makes sense. I do most of my socializing at work. Unfortunately, I don't know if that's fortunate or unfortunate, but

[00:04:07] Heidi: And I think that's where a lot of people meet their friends in midlife, is at work, so, yeah.

[00:04:13] Etienne: Yeah, yeah. I actually, yeah, I think when I'm go through, thinking of all the friends that I've known, I think almost all of them have started out through work pretty much. What about

[00:04:23] Jane: Yeah, my friends now I met through work.

[00:04:25] Etienne: Oh, wait. Probably from your neighborhood too, right? You're friends with a lot of your neighbors as well, aren't you?

[00:04:29] Jane: I am. And that's why I can socialize taking the dog for the walk. But, that's something that we can get into 'cause I do think that then you have to be intentional about, all right, I'm talking to this person. We have something in common.

[00:04:41] Etienne: Mm-hmm.

[00:04:41] Jane: How do you take that beyond the niceties of, hi, bye. It's a nice day out. Your dog's so cute and have a good one. These little things that we just say and then make that into an actual meaningful friendship. And I think you have to be super intentional about it.

[00:05:01] Heidi: Yeah. She talks about it in the article about how she equates it to dating in midlife. You know, trying to find a friend in midlife is very similar. You gotta have compatible interests, compatible life stories sometimes too.

[00:05:16] Etienne: So you can relate to each other, right? I mean, if you come from completely different backgrounds.

[00:05:20] Heidi: Yep

[00:05:20] Etienne: You know, somebody had to struggle growing up with their families and somebody had everything handed to them, they're gonna have completely different frame of reference in life.

[00:05:27] Jane: Unless the person is super empathetic, who didn't have the struggle. Yeah. I think it's definitely depends and it depends on how both people can meet each other, which then makes me wanna just get my fun fact out of the, the way because we're starting to get into the depths that are super meaningful.

[00:05:41] Jane: And my fun fact is about gossip and it makes me feel a little bit shy and I'm like, let's go to the shallows for a hot second. But it takes us back to, Etienne, when you were talking about the hot goss about Sandra Bernhard and Madonna, which I had no idea about because I never, I, um, but 

[00:05:58] Heidi: knew there was a falling out, but I didn't know the reasons. Yeah.

[00:06:01] Jane: I didn't even know they were friends because I guess I've been living under a rock on that front. And, even though on a previous episode when we were talking about our first orgasm, mine was by myself listening to Madonna's erotica song, called erotic. But, it's, it's fine.

[00:06:17] Jane: I didn't know about the Sandra Bernhardt thing, but so my fun fact, also I got from an article that I read in Psychology Today that was an interview with an author named Danielle Bayard Jackson, who is the author of a book called Fighting for Our Friendships, the Science and Art of Conflict and Connection in Women's Relationships.

[00:06:37] Jane: And that author was a former high school teacher, so it was all about it. I was like, all right, let me just see what she has to say. But in her book, and then in the article when she was talking about her book, she was talking about how gossip serves a purpose. And I was just like, Ooh, now you've peaked my interest.

[00:06:54] Jane: Because I think that even though I'd love to say like, what? Because I am a pretty intellectual person having lived in academia for so long. And then, just having to write a lot of academic articles that in my professional life, sometimes I like to pretend I'm so cerebral. I'm above gossip, but I'm not.

[00:07:12] Jane: I'm just gonna be totally real. Sometimes I'm like, what's the hot gos'? But then I'll kind of reprimand myself about it and be like, ah, that's really, don't do that. That's not nice. But it's like we all kind of enjoy it to an extent. And she was talking about be mindful of how you gossip because it serves a purpose.

[00:07:33] Jane: And I was like, Ooh, do tell. So she said, well, we may outwardly denounce gossip. Like, I was just being super snooty about like, I don't do that. She said it fulfills a basic sociological need because it helps us navigate social dynamics. And she's like, okay. So when you find yourself gossiping, just take a beat and ask yourself, am I talking about or am I talking against? That's like an important distinction because if you're talking about your friend, because you're trying to process feelings about maybe an interaction that happened that you're feeling weird about, or there's something bothering you that you're trying to address and just talk through with somebody that's different.

[00:08:11] Jane: Or maybe you just need to vent because something frustrated you. And, if you just vent about it, you'll just move past it and through it. But if you talk to them about it, like, is that really necessary? Maybe you just need to talk through it with somebody else. Or are you secretly taking delight?

[00:08:24] Jane: Right? And having somebody be like, what a bitch. Like that kind of thing. Which I have never, I hold myself to a standard of like, don't be cat fighting and being gossipy in that manner. But sometimes I definitely do have to talk through my feelings about something with other people.

[00:08:40] Jane: I'll know if I feel really awful after, talking about somebody with a third party and they were being really negative about the person in a way that felt gratuitous. I'll start to feel icky and try to change the subject. And that's how I know, you know what I mean?

[00:08:55] Jane: And then if I start to entertain that too, I feel weird in my body and I'm just like, all right, let's not do this. Let's not tear each other down. Let's try to give the other person the benefit of the doubt and, let's maybe not call her that let's work through.

[00:09:10] Jane: Why are you, why are you saying that? And, if I'm finding myself agreeing, I'm like, Ugh, this feels gross. And I think that that's one of the challenging things, right, of female friendships, right? Is that to try to not engage in caddy behavior, especially in your formative years where that kind of thing tends to be more prominent.

[00:09:32] Etienne: Yeah, it felt like a daily thing, you know? As teenagers growing up, you at least were hearing about it.

[00:09:37] Jane: I went outta my way to be friends with girls who were not like that. And I think that, if someone I was hanging out with would start being like that, I had a lot of friend breakups. I don't know if you guys ever like, where I was just like, I kinda wanna be like this, you know?

[00:09:51] Jane: And I've had to do it as an adult, when we were talking about being intentional about friendships, and I've been lucky to be close to a lot of my neighbors over the years, and then they become friends, you know? And some of it happened because our kids were playing together, or some of it happened because we were walking dogs and we had dogs.

[00:10:07] Jane: Literally as we record this podcast, I am watching two dogs that are not mine, who are the dogs of my former neighbors who they moved out of our neighborhood, but we still socialize and our kids are friends and our dogs are friends.

[00:10:17] Jane: But there was a woman in my neighborhood that I had to break up with as a friend. And the main reason I broke up with her is because she was trying to turn me against another woman that we were both friends with.

[00:10:29] Etienne: What? Oh my God.

[00:10:31] Jane: by accusing her of, well, I'll just say it 'cause I'm not gonna name the people. But, she was accusing our friend that we had in common and neighbor of committing adultery. And I knew that that was not true. And I knew that what was actually true was that she had, she was projecting like she 

[00:10:51] Heidi: Yeah. 

[00:10:51] Etienne: no.

[00:10:51] Jane: like adultery. Not full on having sex was definitely making out with multiple people while she was married. And I, 

[00:10:59] Etienne: Oh my Lord. 

[00:11:01] Jane: I had a major problem with it because one of the times it happened, her husband was deployed. And I get like, you're lonely and I get these kinds of things, but I'm like, dude, you signed up for that kind of life. And now don't try to assuage your own guilt by then accusing our friend of that. And I think she was doing it 'cause she wanted to turn me against this other woman and be closer to her when we were all friends together.

[00:11:23] Jane: And I just said, I don't participate in this. Whatever this is that you're trying to do. And, I found out that she was lying about it. And I said, I can't be friends with people who lie to me about something like this and then try to use this as ammunition to turn me against another person that we both are close to, and it makes me really uncomfortable.

[00:11:43] Jane: So, I wish you all the best in your life, but I'm done here. And she was like, are you breaking up with me? I'm like, yes, I am breaking up with you as a friend. We are no longer friends. And our daughters were still friends so we maintained a sense of civility. So at least we were adults about that.

[00:11:58] Jane: There was no actual cat fight. I just was like, I'm done with you as a person. And it was so awkward because we had become friends as adults, but a lot of that happened through our kids. So I'm curious how you guys have made friends in adulthood and how that differs from friends you made when you were younger. 

[00:12:18] Heidi: Well, I just recently had a breakup, kind of, I guess a ghosting of a friend. I don't know. Yeah, meeting friends and after moving a lot too is difficult. So I've been in different groups and one of the groups was this group all women. And gosh, there was a lot of cattiness that was going on. People talking about each other. I mean, just being nasty though, like not.

[00:12:45] Etienne: What? Oh no. 

[00:12:46] Heidi: Yeah, talking about somebody's weight and you

[00:12:50] Etienne: Come on. 

[00:12:50] Heidi: Oh, yeah, yeah. And, criticizing them about their family choices. I don't know. It was very icky. But the one girl that we became close with all these women and they didn't like me. And because she was friends with me, I think they were kind of giving her weird treatment. And so I kind of feel like,

[00:13:11] Etienne: sounds so high school 

[00:13:12] Heidi: Oh yeah, this group is very high school. So I think she ghosted me 'cause I see the group texts, she's still going back and forth with these women. I think she gave me up to maintain friends with all of them because friends with them longer. So it's unfortunate. That's what I'm guessing anyway. 'Cause I don't know what else I could have done for her to drop me. 

[00:13:36] Etienne: Well, if that's true, I mean, maybe it is true that that's what happened, I think you need to look at it like, well, at least you didn't waste any more time being friends with her. 'Cause obviously she's not a real friend if she's gonna do this to you, you know? 

[00:13:47] Heidi: Yeah, yeah. Well it was getting weird towards the end anyway. There was a little bit of passive aggressiveness going on, and I just didn't need weird feelings. And so I sent her a text saying, I'm grateful for the time we did have together and I feel like I learned a lot from you. 'Cause she's very spiritual too. So that was weird and awkward and I grieved it for a couple days. 'cause, we became really close really fast and it was kind of sad, but also at the same time, I'm like, okay there's that saying of people come into your life for a season, a reason

[00:14:25] Etienne: Hmm. 

[00:14:25] Heidi: or a lifetime and just a season, and that's okay.

[00:14:29] Heidi: Yeah. But it was so weird to navigate that whole group dynamic, and feeling like I was back in high school with these mean girls and I'm just like, I don't like this. This is weird. We're all middle aged women too.

[00:14:44] Etienne: Yeah, exactly. Nope. Nobody's perfect. If you're picking on people from how they look, what they wear, how they do their hair, I mean, that's just ridiculous. That's that person's choice of how they wanna look.

[00:14:55] Heidi: It's just petty and it goes to show you someone's own insecurities and they're not dealing with their own shit. So. Yeah, like Jane said, I just felt icky being around some of it.

[00:15:07] Etienne: Do you have any friends that you made while you were in the Air Force that you still have, like when you're actually in the Air Force? 

[00:15:12] Heidi: Actually, no, I did for a while. I did for a while and then they went the crazy 

[00:15:23] Etienne: Oh no. Wait, what? Really? Like PTSD or like what 

[00:15:27] Heidi: well, you know how there's like some divisions in the country and,

[00:15:31] Etienne: Oh, yes. Mm-hmm.

[00:15:32] Heidi: Yeah. So they went one way, I went another, and 

[00:15:37] Etienne: That's what happened to. Okay. So I had a friend that I did not meet through work, but it was her work that I was visiting. It was a doctor's office, and she was the office manager. And, uh, so we both had lived in California. I think she grew up in Northern California and I lived in California for 16 years.

[00:15:52] Etienne: So we had similar openness to spirituality and very similar views on sex and just being open to things that a lot of people in the south may not be open to. And so I felt very, strong kinship with her. So we went out to coffee, then we started doing dinner, hanging out at her house.

[00:16:10] Etienne: Her husband's family have a beach house that they allowed them to use for one week out of the year in the summertime. And she invited me. I went and stayed over there. That was so cool.

[00:16:20] Etienne: And COVID happened. And me being a nurse, I kind of have one view of COVID and she had the whole, it's a made up situation, viewpoint, and I started seeing more of her political views that I did not know about, and it turned me off and I tried have another dinner with her. And the same thing happened and I was just like, why do we talk about this? We don't, we could just not talk about this. We could just cut this part out, like have a friendship based on everything else. And she just, I didn't say that though.

[00:16:54] Etienne: I just didn't really talk much in those situations hoping that was going to make the subject change. But she seemed perfectly happy to just keep talking and listening to herself talk and, yeah, so I decided I couldn't do that anymore. I think that was the closest friendship I'd had in a while, my newest, closest friendship. Yeah. So I didn't actually have a breakup with her. It was just one of those things where it coincided with me doing travel nursing. So it was easy to just be like, Hmm. And we just won't be texting, I guess, not a ghosting. It was just like, eh, and it just dwindles out and it goes to nothing. 

[00:17:31] Jane: That's so unfortunate. 'cause you should be able to have ideological differences and then there's so many other things that you can bond with people over and it sounded like you had a list of pretty important things that you can still have in common. I think that you have to have some differences otherwise you're like, I don't wanna be friends with myself. I have me, I mean someone who's different but 

[00:17:52] Etienne: Yeah. It just made me feel uncomfortable and I feel maybe, maybe if I had been more adult about it and just been like, Hey, I think we have different viewpoints here about this subject and I don't think I'm gonna change your mind, and I'm not gonna try to change your mind, and I don't think you're gonna change my mind about it.

[00:18:08] Etienne: So why don't we just, just not talk about it? There's plenty of, you know, if I had said that maybe things could have gone on, but I was chicken shit, I didn't do it. Yeah. Because that's hard. It's hard to say that. It's kind of like when you say to a guy that you've been on a couple dates with who are like, I wanna see you again, and, you could ghost them and just not do anything.

[00:18:29] Etienne: But when I was in the dating world, before I found my ex-boyfriend, I would tell people straight up like, yeah, no, not gonna happen. I was adult about it then, but for some reason, I couldn't be adult about it with her, and I don't know why. 

[00:18:41] Jane: I think that maybe it's hard with a friendship because you're wanting there to be like a long, for the long haul where like when you're dating like, I don't know this, maybe this could fizzle out or not. And you wanna have that foundation. And when I've had that kind of difficult conversation that you were talking about, like not having, like I've forced myself to do it when it's family, 

[00:19:02] Etienne: Yeah. 

[00:19:02] Jane: Because I need to. I'm like, I don't want to not have this relationship over a political difference or something else. And I could say, I had this conversation with my sister. My sister lovingly refers to me on social media, all the time as like, my first best friend.

[00:19:21] Jane: And, it's true for both of us, and we were very, very close, but there were a few years there where that relationship was really tested. Because she, and I can say this openly if she ever hears it, because she knows it's true but she had just found a new fervor for religion. And she wanted everybody to know this good news. Quite literally she was evangelizing but as was her mandate at the time. And like, I get it. And she would have conversations with me that were like, the mission was to convert me.

[00:19:56] Jane: And I was like, listen, I read the Bible. I used to teach a bible as literature course. 

[00:20:01] Etienne: Jane, you are so, you're so impressive. I swear. No, you really are. I'm not joking. Like I, you really No, you really do. Like you, you're so, you're so

[00:20:12] Jane: like, I 

[00:20:13] Etienne: educated and

[00:20:14] Jane: that. Like this 

[00:20:16] Etienne: you're my most educated person I've ever met, in my whole life.

[00:20:20] Jane: Oh geez. Well, well that's cool. Thank you. But I worked at this high school that had an amazing curriculum. So I could teach medieval literature or literature after 1945 in America, or just the Bible as literature. And kids could take these classes for their English credit, but as electives and it was amazing. Anyway, I say that just to say she was talking to me like I've never read the book and she was talking to me like we both hadn't been baptized three times. Like we were Catholic. 

[00:20:49] Etienne: Okay. 

[00:20:50] Jane: Well, we were born Catholic, and our parents were practicing at the time, so we got baptized then as babies, and then we got baptized when my mom remarried, a Protestant. And so we got baptized then. And, I was in fourth grade and my sister was in second grade and then, first grade rather, and then we both got baptized then as teenagers of our own accord, because we did confirmations and then she was like straight up atheist.

[00:21:14] Jane: Then when she became a teenager, she was like, actually, I don't think so. And I wasn't like evangelical, but I was like, Jesus is cool. I like the tenets of this faith. I don't like some of the stuff that they say about women or these other things. I have issues with this.

[00:21:31] Jane: I have friends who are gay or whatever. And so I had my own, I was like a cafeteria Christian, where like, I'll take this that I like, but I also like what Buddhist says and I was just kind of doing that and she was like, I don't think anything of this is true and we all take a dirt nap.

[00:21:46] Jane: And I was like, well, we're just gonna agree to disagree so we could agree to disagree when I still believed in God and she didn't, but then when she found Jesus again in a new way, she wanted me to find Jesus in the exact same way. 

[00:22:00] Etienne: Oh my gosh. 

[00:22:01] Jane: And it was ruining our friendship. And I know that we're sisters, so I did then have the awkward conversation. Like I, i,

[00:22:09] Etienne: to, yeah, 

[00:22:10] Jane: yeah, well, 'cause I told you I broke up with a friend, but I didn't wanna break up with my sister, so I was like, all right, this is the most important female friendship of my life. Because she and I had been there for each other, through the most difficult times of our lives and know things about each other that nobody else, they can learn about secondhand, but I mean, we were there for, we're only two years apart.

[00:22:34] Jane: And, so I just said, listen, you gonna have to stop trying to convert me and just understand that my relationship with Jesus is gonna look different from yours. And I'm fine with that. I need you to stop. Because, it's making me not wanna talk with you. And it's making me really sad and I feel like I'm mourning our relationship.

[00:22:57] Etienne: Hmm. 

[00:22:57] Jane: It's not tenable. And she did get over that and she has not tried since we had that conversation. And I think that one of the things that I think that because she's my family, I was able to do that, but it's a lesson for me to try to carry over in other friendships. And I have had to have those kinds of conversations with other people. And it's always hard. But, if you wanna maintain any relationship and friendships I think are no different. You gotta nurture it. 

[00:23:25] Etienne: yeah. I think you have to go about it in the right way and have those hard conversations every once in a while if you wanna have a friendship. Otherwise you're gonna be fucking alone. 'cause nobody is gonna think exactly like you in

[00:23:36] Heidi: Oh, exactly. Yeah,

[00:23:37] Etienne: boring as f, you know? Seriously.

[00:23:40] Heidi: Yeah. me it was just, it was values. You know what someone valued, so.

[00:23:46] Etienne: Yeah. But your situation, Heidi, with the ladies who gossip, I mean, and are the 

[00:23:50] Heidi: that I, I'm talking yeah, I'm talking about the ex Air Force friends. Yeah. Like, it just became like a values thing. Like, Hmm. We don't value the same things and Yeah. 

[00:24:04] Etienne: Yeah. 

[00:24:05] Jane: That can be hard too. So it's like, okay, you can have differences of opinions, but if it's like a core value that you feel like their core values are not compatible with, and that does become a hard thing to navigate around. It's like, okay, well what else am I getting out of this friendship.

[00:24:19] Heidi: Well, one of 'em became just like madly anti-abortion and had abortions herself in her past, 

[00:24:29] Etienne: What? And then, and then subsequently, years later, 

[00:24:32] Heidi: and then, you know, yeah was voting for on the right to strip everybody of that right. And I just was like, how can you be such a hypocrite? Like that's, no, that's not okay. That's not okay with me.

[00:24:46] Etienne: That makes me think maybe she felt shame for what she had done. So now she wanted to like, get back at her, like, well, we should just take every, everybody's choice of that away, so nobody has to feel the shame or something. I wouldn't feel shame if I went and had one personally, but some people might. Yeah, 

[00:25:01] Heidi: you made your own personal decision. I'm sorry, we're not meant to get to go off on that 

[00:25:07] Etienne: Abortion is a woman's issue. I mean, that's, doesn't have to be political, but it is, but we don't have to make it that.

[00:25:13] Heidi: But I feel like if you don't wanna have an abortion, don't have one, but don't make that choice for someone else. 'Cause it could be life or death kinda situation too, you know? 

[00:25:22] Etienne: Yeah. There's a whole demographic of women who have more chance of dying in childbirth if they are black Latino

[00:25:31] Heidi: Mm-hmm. 

[00:25:32] Etienne: Don't have the money to go have their prenatal care. Even if they do, they still might die or right after. They have a much higher chance of dying than white women. There's so many reasons why we need to have abortion.

[00:25:43] Jane: So we all share that value, and we can have those conversations. And the thing is, there have been times where I thought like I had a friend who felt a certain way till they were in that situation. Then all of a sudden now we're having a conversation of like, can you drive me home after going, so I think that, oh yeah, that happened in my younger years.

[00:26:01] Jane: That happened with a very good and I think that that brings us to like another, of like, friends are people who you show up for each other when you really need to. And I think when you're in midlife, it's like, okay, if you're still trying to court somebody to be your friend, then how do you get to the point where they're gonna feel comfortable asking you to show up for them for something like, can you take me to a doctor appointment? Or, can you take me to the airport? To me, those are like gauges

[00:26:26] Etienne: Help me move. there's a good one.

[00:26:28] Jane: Yeah. Ooh, yes.

[00:26:30] Heidi: Yes. I just went to remove and several friends came through and awesome to be able to hang out with them and they took a lot of the burden off by doing some, hanging out with me, or helping me wrap up stuff. 

[00:26:44] Etienne: Good. I do have a question, Jane, about your friend who changed her views on abortion after she. Did she keep those changed views or did she go back to saying

[00:26:52] Jane: No, she kept them because she was just like, all right then, I found myself in that circumstance and I thought I felt a certain way till I was staring that down and yeah, it changed the way that she felt about it. And, we were young when that happened 

[00:27:06] Etienne: Oh, I did wanna say this. There's a girl at work who, without me saying anything ever to her about this, she said, oh, Etienne is my friend who I know will drive me to another state if I ever need an abortion. And I was like, yep, I will drive you whenever you need to go. A hundred percent. 

[00:27:31] Jane: Same. Yeah. And not cast judgment it is a personal thing and whatever medical emergency my friend was having, like I would take them. Actually, I took Heidi, Heidi needed someone to take her to a procedure and then take her home and make sure she was okay. 

[00:27:45] Heidi: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:27:47] Jane: That was a long time ago. 

[00:27:48] Heidi: That was a long time ago. 

[00:27:49] Heidi: That was when, yeah, we had Kiki smelly cat.

[00:27:53] Etienne: Kiki, the smelly 

[00:27:54] Heidi: Oh, no, no, That was a different

[00:27:56] Etienne: Okay. 

[00:27:57] Jane: That was 

[00:27:57] Heidi: It was, I I had a cold or something.

[00:28:00] Jane: Yeah. And I was just, I, I can't remember why I came over. I do remember your cat's toxic shit though. It was like, It like, almost knocked me, my eyes were watering. 

[00:28:09] Heidi: It was so bad. She would run out of the litter 

[00:28:12] Etienne: hated the smell of it. Is that what you're saying? Oh no, I didn't know 

[00:28:17] Heidi: Yeah, you could smell it. You could smell it throughout the house. You would go, oh, Kiki pooped. And you have to go and

[00:28:24] Etienne: Like get rid of it right away. Oh, just bury it. Okay. 

[00:28:27] Heidi: Yeah. Bury it to get rid of the stink. 

[00:28:29] Etienne: Shit. 

[00:28:30] Heidi: she was, 

[00:28:32] Jane: That poor 

[00:28:32] Heidi: had bad poops. Bad poops. Just IBS, this poor cat like her whole life.

[00:28:40] Etienne: Oh, that poor thing.

[00:28:42] Heidi: Yeah, she was, yeah, she was very sweet. But just, well, sometimes swat at you if she wasn't feeling great, but 

[00:28:51] Etienne: yeah, maybe she was having some bowel like pain.

[00:28:54] Heidi: yeah, seriously, it was poor thing, but she was a cutie.

[00:28:59] Jane: She was. And I didn't judge you for being a cat person or for you needed.

[00:29:04] Etienne: I know, I know. 

[00:29:05] Jane: I was there

[00:29:06] Etienne: Because there's definitely cat people and dog people and uh, there's some people who are both.

[00:29:11] Heidi: both. I like 'em both.

[00:29:13] Jane: You've always been kind to my animals. Yeah. 

[00:29:16] Etienne: I never grew, I couldn't grow up with a cat with, 'cause my brother was allergic. So we could only have dogs that didn't shed. So, we had the non shedding dogs. So I never got used to the idea of a cat. My mom was also allergic as well, but I'm not allergic. But yeah, it's just weird for me. You gotta do different things for them. 

[00:29:35] Heidi: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I'm taking care of my friend Megan's cats this week,

[00:29:39] Etienne: Like I know it's bad to get them declawed 'cause I know now what that means. But, I would be a hundred percent up for a cat if we could have no front claws. So they can't hurt my furniture and stuff. 

[00:29:50] Heidi: you give them scratching posts.

[00:29:51] Etienne: I guess you could put tape on it. 

[00:29:53] Jane: But while you're training them

[00:29:54] Heidi: yeah. You can train them, but they're, you know, if

[00:29:57] Etienne: Sounds like Jane can train him. Sounds like Jane can train anybody in a couple days. 

[00:30:02] Jane: I can train dogs. I don't know how to train cats and nor do I ever want a cat but Heidi and I are still friends, even though I'm like adamant anti-cat, like my neighbor's cat, next door. Yeah. I should probably also then be friends with Norman's Norman is the cat's name. Be friends with the humans who own this cat. I have like a relationship with this cat's coming over to my house, like every day to play with me and my dog. Animals have actually led me to many of my middle aged friendships. Just walking my dog. In our neighborhood when we first moved here, that's how I met all my neighbors.

[00:30:40] Jane: They all knew the dog's name. Then it gets awkward, right? 'cause I know a lot of dog's names in my neighborhood and then I don't know their people's names. Like there's this dog I see all the time. His name is Ghost. He is so cool. This dog is beautiful. He is a white husky.

[00:30:56] Etienne: Oh wow. That's a good name for White husky. Wow. 

[00:30:59] Jane: Yes. And he's so handsome and he's so friendly. And he really, really loves my dog. I think he like, loves my dog. My dog is female. Both of these dogs are fixed, but I don't think Ghost cares. But Tessa cares. She's like, I'm not really wanting to be humped in the street right now. And so we try to like, let them smell each other.

[00:31:18] Jane: But I'm like, do I then, am I gonna start having a conversation with ghost owner? Like how do I take it beyond like a hi bye thing, right? And become like a friendship. And so that is where. Like over the years, how long are we stopping and talking and what are we talking about?

[00:31:37] Jane: And is the invitation to talk about something deeper? Does that happen? You know? 

[00:31:43] Jane: So recently I became close with one of my neighbors because he lost his wife. And, um, and he has a garden and I have a garden. And so he was talking to me about vegetables and then he was just like, would you like to see, he opened the door to, would you like to see He had this kind of bean that he wanted to show me.

[00:32:02] Jane: And I was just like, you know what? Yeah. I was looking at my watch. I was like, I don't have a meeting. It was on a workday and I work remotely, so I was just like, I don't have a meeting for another hour. I could totally talk to this guy about his beans. So I go into his garden, but then he started talking about his wife.

[00:32:18] Jane: And he started to get really choked up and then apologize for getting choked up. And I was just like, don't ever apologize for that. And then, I said, can I hug you? Because I was just like, this man is like crying and I don't know what to, and he just couldn't even say anything. He just nodded. So I'm like, hugging this man. And he talks to me about how like, now he believes in an afterlife. He feels like his wife is watching out for him, but then sometimes we seriously just talk about tomatoes and beans. So it just depends on the day.

[00:32:48] Jane: But I feel like in midlife, and he is older than I am, but I don't think that that matters. We're both older and he said that he was lonely. His wife was the one who kind of was the person who made the social plans and stuff like that. And they had other friends in the neighborhood who have, 

[00:33:03] Etienne: Oh 

[00:33:05] Jane: You can sense the overture sometimes. It was just like, you wanna see my beans, and it wasn't like a euphemism per se. He wasn't being 

[00:33:11] Etienne: my, my one beam between my legs.

[00:33:13] Jane: I 

[00:33:14] Etienne: that's not where 

[00:33:14] Jane: garden. I could see his garden. So I'm like, okay. And it's like, you have to decide, am I gonna walk through the door someone opened, or am I gonna open the door? And that's where you create space for that. Like, when you're little, it's like, Hey, do you wanna play kickball? Or like, we have the same math teacher. There's all of these opportunities that are just organic. And as you get older and life is busy. The organic experiences are fewer and far between.

[00:33:40] Jane: And then the pandemic threw a social awkward wrench in everybody's brain. And now it's like you have to really look for those openings and be very, very intentional. There's an epidemic of loneliness in our country right now. And I feel like, for women at least, we have more license to have emotional language in our lives and make those overtures maybe more easily than men. But I still think it can be hard and we have to really push to make it happen. 

[00:34:05] Heidi: yeah. I've been fortunate. I was thinking about all the friends I've made here, and I came through a TikTok connection. Isn't that crazy? I met Courtney through TikTok and we discovered, oh, we're both in central Iowa. Let's meet. And then I met a guy through a yoga class that, well, we talked about him before.

[00:34:27] Heidi: So she took me to one of her yoga classes and met him and then met Megan and all them through him, and also the Unity crowd where I go for Sound Bath. So I would've never met. Gloria I would've never met Megan, all these people that now I just adore and can't imagine, them not in my life. So they've become such a huge part. It's crazy. Yeah. So, social media app kinda led to almost all my friendships I now have, 

[00:34:57] Etienne: That's so good.

[00:34:59] Heidi: Yeah. 

[00:35:00] Etienne: A very 

[00:35:00] Etienne: positive take on social 

[00:35:01] Etienne: media. 

[00:35:02] Jane: Yes. Well, 'cause you moved it into real life, you know? And like, and then we've mentioned on a previous episode that we all met because we all were writers and met at a writing conference. And we shared laughter, we were all laughing about poop and thought that 

[00:35:15] Etienne: You all made me laugh just so hard that my face hurts. It was fortunate that Jane and I live in the same state, so I mean, it's not that hard to get together, you know? It's just a drive, that's all. So, yeah. And I love 

[00:35:28] Jane: and we are gonna drive to Iowa.

[00:35:30] Etienne: Yes, we are. We have to figure out the dates on that. I'm so excited. 

[00:35:35] Heidi: I can't wait. I can't wait. Yes.

[00:35:38] Etienne: We have to do it while it's still warm. Y'all, no, Iowa gets cold, right? 

[00:35:43] Heidi: Yeah. But I mean, to be honest with you, I didn't take my air conditioner unit out of my window until November. It really was like it, we had a weird, 

[00:35:54] Etienne: I thought you were gonna say you left it at your old department. I was like, what? No, 

[00:35:57] Heidi: we had a Indian summer for sure. Like 

[00:36:02] Etienne: Wow. 

[00:36:02] Heidi: long. So, we got some time.

[00:36:05] Jane: Okay. 

[00:36:06] Etienne: that'll be

[00:36:06] Heidi: But yeah, I definitely wanna host you 

[00:36:07] Heidi: guys. 

[00:36:08] Jane: And then we can record together. It'll be so fun. 

[00:36:10] Etienne: Yeah. We can bring our equipment. Yeah. So good. Oh my gosh.

[00:36:17] Heidi: be in the same room. Yeah. 

[00:36:19] Etienne: Well, I haven't brought it up, but I also feel like when we are talking about female friendships, more like, I feel like I might be a little stunted in the how to keep female friendships in general because my mother having the narcissistic personality disorder and me being her source, she wanted me to not have any friends.

[00:36:36] Etienne: She wanted me to rely only on her. To have only her in my life so that I could be available for her 24 7. So she found a way, I mean, she wasn't the reason for the loss of all of my friendships. One, I think back on this one friendship of mine that I lost because of a guy that she liked who liked me. And I was like, Hmm. And this was the concert promoter guy. 

[00:36:59] Etienne: And I'm like, oh wow. If I date him, I could go to all these things like all the time. And he was cute and yeah, and tall and he had great hair and yeah, there's just like all these reasons. But yeah, I was a dumb ass and I lost her because of that. And, but yeah, pretty much, all of the other female friends that I had until I stopped talking to my mother, I lost because of her. I had a really close friend that I met through work. We both worked at Clinique, no Lancome together. And we were roommates for a time as well.

[00:37:35] Etienne: And yeah, my mom totally poisoned me about her and got me to kick her out of my life. So, yeah. I just, I, I don't know. I I mean, I have had long friendships, but I feel like I have a tendency to, like if I find something that I don't like, that I feel like I can't get over, I can't stop thinking about it with that person. It makes me wanna just be black and white about it instead of allowing there to be gray.

[00:37:58] Heidi: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:37:59] Etienne: And I think that's related to my mother perhaps, but I just, I think if I'm just cognizant about it, then I can overcome that and have those hard conversations because I am actually starting a friendship with my neighbor across the street.

[00:38:11] Etienne: We both have dogs and her dog and my dog are best friends. They wanna hang out together as much as possible. It's a Westie and my dog's a little Miniature schnauzer, so they're like the same size ish.

[00:38:23] Etienne: Her dog's bigger, but by only by a little bit. But yeah, they're best friends. And so she and I started talking even though we hadn't talked for, I've lived here over 20 years and she's lived across the street longer than that. And, we've literally only started having conversations in the last year since I started walking this dog of mine. She's like giving me books. She's like, I read this book and here I'm like, you want me to give it back to you after I read it? And she is like, no, no, I read it, I'm fine. I'm like, really? I can't imagine doing that. I have a thing about books. So 

[00:38:55] Jane: I'm like, I. 

[00:38:59] Etienne: this is not a give like, yeah, so, she's taken me to her barre class. We've gone in a car trip half an hour ride away, basically, to walk our dogs on Daniel Island together.

[00:39:12] Etienne: And, yeah, so we've gone on these little trips, basically around town. So we're starting a friendship. And I know ideologically she is different than me. She had signs in her yard that told me what she thought. And, that turned me off about her, earlier on. And we literally were just having a conversation about an hour before we started talking tonight.

[00:39:34] Etienne: And we were talking about another neighbor of ours, a male neighbor I guess she said he is from Boston. I didn't know he was from Boston, but she said, he didn't talk to me for a long time because he didn't like my political views. And she said, but I vote for the person.

[00:39:47] Etienne: I don't I don't vote for, you know, like, okay. I wasn't saying anything. I wasn't saying. Yeah, I know. I saw the signs in your yard. Like it's any, I just don't wanna even talk about it. So if it comes up again, 'cause that's the first time in a year, it's come up. So if it comes up again and she talks about it, I think she knows.

[00:40:07] Etienne: I don't think that way. Maybe, maybe. I'm not sure. But, I think I'll just have the hard conversation and go, we don't have to talk about that. There's plenty of things to talk about, like we do, like entertainment and what we like to do for exercise and our dogs and, you know, we like similar shows and books and Yeah. So we can just talk about that. And her job, she's a paralegal. I used to be a paralegal, so like, there's plenty, plenty, of things to talk about. 

[00:40:33] Jane: So much common ground. 

[00:40:34] Etienne: There is, we are human beings and she's, and I also think that she has friends, but I think she wants more friends. She's divorced and she lives alone in her house with her dogs.

[00:40:44] Etienne: So, yeah, she enjoys the conversation. She invites me into the backyard with my dog. 'Cause it's fenced in, in her yard so they can run around and just go crazy in the yard and it's so cute to watch. Especially when her dog accidentally jumps over my dog or Angus does a parkour over her dog a little bit,

[00:41:03] Jane: Yes. gosh. 

[00:41:05] Etienne: where he's like, I'm like, holy god, I wish I had that on. Had a video of that. Cute. 

[00:41:11] Jane: Parkour. See, I don't know. I feel like dogs are the gateway. If you're going to move to 

[00:41:16] Etienne: drug. Dogs, 

[00:41:18] Jane: Yeah. You could go to a dog park. Dogs and activities, I know a lot of people, you join a team or it has a kickball or you go to yoga. Or I know that Heidi, you've got the sound bath things that you go to and different classes and stuff. I think that there's that, and then you just see 

[00:41:35] Etienne: Isn't there an app Isn't there an app you can use now to make friends, friends? Friends, not like, you know, date? 

[00:41:41] Heidi: Yeah. Well, I think Bumble, they've got a friends area. Maybe one day I'll check it out, but I'm pretty satisfied with what I got going on. Yeah, yeah, i've got a good solid group going so I got enough social activities in my life where yeah, 

[00:41:58] Etienne: you're very busy. 

[00:42:01] Jane: I used Meetup when I was like, you know, 'cause I had. 

[00:42:05] Heidi: Yes. Meetup. Yeah. 

[00:42:06] Jane: My really good friends. It's so funny, Heidi, earlier when you were talking about people making your best friend when you were 21. And when I was 21, I met my friend Lisa, shout out to Lisa Donato, who's one of my best friends ever, who lives in New York.

[00:42:19] Jane: And we met when we were both teaching and it was my first teaching job. And, we did not like each other at first. Well, I didn't like her. It's funny to both of us. Now, I could say I think she was like a different, to me, she was just like, whatever, this is the chick that uses my classroom first period.

[00:42:36] Jane: But, she was just oblivious to what I might need and what I needed was for her to not be in the room. And I was sitting there struggling to get my feet under me during my first year of teaching. I'm like, leave. Why are you making a bulletin board on the first day of school, first period?

[00:42:49] Jane: But anyway, we didn't, I did not like her at first. And then. Over the course of the school year, a lot of the other women in the English department were poisoning my mind against her. Like they were gossiping, right? Like what we were talking about earlier, like backbiting like straight up telling me like, this woman is a bitch.

[00:43:07] Jane: And I was like, wow. And, because I had had a negative experience with her that really was the result of her. Like, this is actually a good story for like giving someone the benefit of the doubt. She was like in a really dark place in a relationship that she was in at the time, and I didn't know, I just knew that she was making a bulletin board on the first day of school.

[00:43:25] Jane: It's like, seriously, I'm trying to talk to these kids about what my rules are and she's just like, go with a stapler, like putting pictures of fish on a bulletin board. I was like, what the fuck? Anyway, so I did not like her and so when these other women were telling me like, oh yeah, no, she's like, she's bad news.

[00:43:40] Jane: But then I saw how she ran her classroom and I actually admired her. And, I still thought I don't know what to think of her now. 'cause these women are telling, they've known her for a couple of years, 'cause she's a couple years older than me and they're telling me that she's a terrible person.

[00:43:52] Jane: And I'm like, but I thought she was just maybe rude for making the bulletin board. Well, I'm trying to teach, but other than that she's been all right. Just, hi, bye, whatever. And then the end of the school year, we go the whole school year with me, being in her classroom first period and she would leave, but sometimes not right away. So I was like, go away. Anyway, she's retired now so I can say this, and also because pot is legal in New York now. At the end of the school year, she had tears in her eyes and she's furiously trying to put all of her grades into these, we had to use to bubble them into these terrible Scantron sheets that make your eyes bleed.

[00:44:25] Jane: 'Cause this was 1996 people, a paper grade book. And, like, then having to put a Scantron, like bubble 'em in for each kid and average up the grades with the calculator. We didn't have any of the software that was doing this stuff for us. And , I had already done my grades 'cause I'm like, dude, these are due now, you know? But I see her struggling and she looks like she's about to cry. And I'm like, do you need some help?

[00:44:47] Etienne: Oh. 

[00:44:48] Jane: And she looked up and she was like, oh my God, would you? And I was like, of course. So I sat down and I said, how can I best help you? 'Cause I had already planned on resigning for this job because It was terrible. It was a middle school and I definitely didn't belong there. But she was just like, just call out the grade and I'll bubble it in. And then, I was helping her and then I was helping her average 'em up, like the different columns and this terrible spreadsheet of a grade book.

[00:45:15] Jane: Anyway, so we banged it out and she's like, all I wanna do is just finish this and just go smoke a joint. And I was like, uh, me too. And she was just like, I knew it. She goes, you gave off that vibe. And I'm like, you did not actually

[00:45:28] Etienne: You did not. 

[00:45:30] Jane: she did not, 'cause she ran her classroom like a catholic nun. Like, she was just very, like, yeah. They were all like, yes, Ms. Donato, like, good morning, Ms. Donato. And I was very jealous of the classroom discipline she had because I struggled with it because I looked so young when I first started teaching that I was getting asked for a hall pass in a building that only housed eighth and ninth graders. I was like, you've gotta be shitting me. I'm like, I'm obviously a teacher, but it wasn't obvious. I had a baby face still so. I also I'm also really short, so it was not helping my case. And, she helped me a lot with giving me pointers on stuff.

[00:46:05] Jane: I was like, your apartment or mine, man. I was just like, I have a joint my back at my place. And, she was just like, really? So we made the decision on who to live closer, and I lived closer, so she came over to my apartment. And we sparked up a joint and we've been friends ever since.

[00:46:18] Jane: And, that was 1996. And we're like, oh my God. We wasted a whole year of like not being friends. And then I got to talk about like, this was like then fun gossip, right? Because then the women who were telling me she was a bitch also then rejected me once they found out that I was not Jewish. They thought that I was Jewish, which should not make any kind of difference, and I don't care what you are, but they had during Hanukkah given me Hanukkah cards, which I was just like, okay. I was like, thank you. I was just like, but I'm not, I'm not, I don't celebrate Hanukkah. I'm like, I celebrate Christmas. And they were just all this clique of, um, of, of women, they all went to the same synagogue and played Mahjong together.

[00:46:57] Jane: And they were very, very cliquey. And so they let me into their clique. 'Cause everybody was like I can't believe these women just adopted you so easily. Well, I found it was because they thought that I was Jewish and then I kept bringing middle Eastern food to like our snack time during faculty meetings.

[00:47:12] Jane: So that just reinforced the fact that like, 'cause all the food that I brought was Israeli. It just so happened that I liked that kind of food. At the time, it wasn't so common to have pita and hummus and I was making tabouli and bringing it. And so they were just like, they thought that I was a Sephardic Jew.

[00:47:27] Jane: And I was like, no, I am not. But, we're still cool. Nope. All the invites stopped. Yeah, like, they were definitely cold to me. I think they thought I was a poser anyway, it was all very comedic after the fact. And I'm like, smoking, getting high with Lisa.

[00:47:44] Jane: And I was like, yo, I was like, they call you Cruella Deville behind your back, just so you know, like, watch out for them because she still stayed in that school and I left. So I gave her the heads up she goes, I feel like they don't like me. And I was like, I'm gonna be honest with you. They don't. I was like, so don't

[00:47:58] Etienne: you think they didn't like her? Was it because she wasn't Jewish? Was the main reason you think they started not liking her or, 

[00:48:03] Jane: I don't know. They said that they thought that how she ran her classroom was insane and that she was too strict. But I saw how those kids were with her 

[00:48:15] Etienne: you can get middle school kids to behave like that, that's amazing. I would be so 

[00:48:19] Jane: They loved her. they loved her 

[00:48:22] Heidi: her 

[00:48:22] Jane: Yes. And uh, 

[00:48:25] Heidi: were just 

[00:48:25] Heidi: jealous. These other women were just jealous. I'm sure. 

[00:48:27] Jane: That's, and I know that a lot of us tell ourselves that when someone like that, they're just jealous. No, these women really were. And so I told her, I was just like, don't give it a second thought. I'm like, just you do you. And yeah, and we've been friends ever since and she's now retired and deserves to be retired. Now. She can smoke joints every day. 

[00:48:47] Etienne: She can live her high life, lived the high life in her 

[00:48:49] Jane: Living the highly life legally in New York. And I love her and we've been through a lot together and she's one of the people that I know, we show up for each other. And I'm happy to say that the two of you, we all show up for each other and, I think that maybe 

[00:49:08] Jane: Heidi, we should indoctrinate Etienne into bananas. Yes. I'm so ha, I love you so much that you knew exactly what I was gonna say. 

[00:49:15] Heidi: Yes, I can read your mind. Sometimes we're that close. Yes. So we have a SOS call for each other. If one of us says bananas, we know we, yeah. It's serious. We need to

[00:49:31] Etienne: okay. 

[00:49:31] Heidi: aside some time and be there for our friend. So, yeah. I think we've each used it a couple times each. 

[00:49:40] Jane: we just text one word, just bananas and then we just call immediately 

[00:49:44] Etienne: yeah. 

[00:49:45] Jane: I gotta drop what I'm doing and call Heidi because she said bananas. Something's wrong. Yeah. Because sometimes you almost feel like as women sometimes feel like we have to apologize for needing something or like apologize for taking up too much space or time or whatever it is.

[00:50:02] Jane: And just having a code word like that is just shorthand for, I need you to be there for me right now 'cause sometimes just writing that down just feels too difficult in the moment. Instead of saying like, I'm freaking out and blah, blah, blah, and then you're waiting for intuit, like, do you need me to call you and talk through it? You just write bananas and it just, you just know that means right now. 

[00:50:23] Etienne: That's so good. Thank you guys. 

[00:50:27] Jane: So. You're part of the Bananas Club. If you needs help right now. 

[00:50:30] Heidi: Yep.

[00:50:31] Etienne: Okay. 

[00:50:32] Heidi: I'll be there for you. It's like a bat signal.

[00:50:36] Etienne: Yeah, that's what it seems like. Aw, proud. 

[00:50:39] Jane: we start doing this? I don't even, I'm trying to remember why we started doing it. It might have just been like, we were saying, this shit is bananas. And then it just turned into something. I don't remember. 

[00:50:49] Heidi: I think it was during that difficult time you were having with 

[00:50:53] Etienne: Oh 

[00:50:54] Jane: Yes. My internet troll. 

[00:50:56] Heidi: yeah, 

[00:50:58] Jane: yeah, and I, I think I was, I was just like, this is bananas. And I think maybe that you, you were telling me just like, write bananas and we can talk. Oh my goodness. Us. 

[00:51:07] Etienne: man. 

[00:51:09] Jane: Crazy times. Yeah. Nobody needs an internet troll making their life miserable. And he had an army of trolls coming for me. So, which we're not gonna open up that can of worms for like legal reasons, but if anybody out there is curious, if you just google my name and just go down far enough a rabbit hole, you'll figure it out. Um, but yeah, it was, uh, 

[00:51:29] Etienne: An army of trolls make me, makes me think of like, suddenly popped into my head was an image of the Orcs from Lord of the Rings. Like, um, 

[00:51:36] Heidi: That's what their souls look like. 

[00:51:40] Jane: That's 

[00:51:40] Etienne: bleed black. The black blood, the black s sludge comes out of them. 

[00:51:46] Jane: Yes. It did feel like that, but it's all good. I won and that's all anybody needs to know. Um, with the help of like Heidi, getting me through bananas. 

[00:51:56] Etienne: Oh my gosh. 

[00:51:58] Heidi: I'm very grateful for your guys' I think I told Jane at one point, like, I wish I had appreciated it more while I was living in South Carolina. 'Cause you know, I miss you so much. 'Cause we were spending like every day together. 

[00:52:16] Jane: Yeah. You would just come over and I'd be like, we'd be going through like two nap cycles with Phoebe. When my daughter was like an infant, I was still breastfeeding. And we would be talking about writing or just like bullshitting. And then, I'd be breastfeeding my baby. And then it's like putting her down for a nap. And then, we'd be talking, then you'd bring sushi over and 

[00:52:35] Heidi: Mm-hmm. Well, your husband was out at the oil fields for a couple weeks at a time. And my ex-husband, he was deploying all the time, so we were really there for each other. I'm just so grateful for that time and I wish I had appreciated it more you know, had realized how special that time was we had together. So

[00:52:57] Etienne: Well now it's just like a long distance, you know, long distance friendship And we can go out of our way. 

[00:53:02] Heidi: And then we talked for five hours on the, on the phone. 

[00:53:05] Jane: Yes, we do. But I think that also, like we've all taken, all of us, trips with each other to carve out time for spiritual rejuvenation, yoga, good food, you know, friend times. And so now. That we have like a triad, we have to now do that all of us together. 

[00:53:27] Etienne: All three of us. Yeah. We've only ever, I mean, I think, 

[00:53:31] Jane: just the writing conferences, 

[00:53:32] Etienne: I think that's the only time we've all been together. Well, you guys have been. Yeah. So like I've been with you, Jane. Jane and Heidi have been together, but yeah, all three of us together has been just a few times, so i'm 

[00:53:44] Jane: the friendship threeway the best freeway.

[00:53:48] Etienne: The best kind of three way. We're not having sex with each other. 

[00:53:52] Jane: Nope. Just being there for each other. I think we, yeah, we, we could take a road trip to Iowa and then maybe one of these days I'd love to go to the art. I'm always looking for excuses to go back to the Art of Living. Shout out Art of living Retreat Center and North Carolina. It's 

[00:54:07] Heidi: The place is amazing. 

[00:54:09] Etienne: food, there's amazing. It's wonderful there. Yeah. 

[00:54:12] Jane: The Ayurvedic food, the yoga, the meditation, the mountains. They're seriously, like I have zero. spa, dude. 

[00:54:21] Etienne: Yeah, we did the, I did, yep. I did this 

[00:54:22] Heidi: hiking. I didn't do any hiking there. I really wanna do that. 

[00:54:26] Etienne: Yeah. 

[00:54:26] Jane: They have a couple of really nice trails.

[00:54:28] Etienne: Okay. 

[00:54:29] Jane: Just gotta watch out for bears. 

[00:54:30] Etienne: All right. So when we do the Iowa trip, then we can plan the art of Living trip. 

[00:54:35] Heidi: Yeah, 

[00:54:36] Etienne: So we can just have the next trip planned. You know, like, so we always have something to look forward to and we're gonna see each other in person again.

[00:54:43] Heidi: yeah. 

[00:54:44] Jane: See, we're doing what we just said. You guys we're being intentional. we're like setting, like we're gonna, we're gonna plan it out and we're gonna actually do it because we're grown ass women and we can get calendars out and plan things.

[00:54:55] Etienne: exactly. That's what calendars are for. And the best way to live life is always have something to look forward to. I think I, I always want something to look forward to, you know? Yeah. 

[00:55:06] Jane: hundred percent. Like the, like the first thing I do sometimes after coming back from a vacation and I get a little bit like, oh, I gotta go back to work, is like, plan the next one.

[00:55:15] Heidi: Mm-hmm. 

[00:55:16] Jane: I I need to know when my next, when I go back to work my email signature always has upcoming out of office or upcoming PTO, like in red at the bottom. So people know I'm not gonna be available during that day or whatever it is. And the first thing I do after I've taken paid time off is redo the signature. I need to know when my next time off is. So that, because it just makes me feel like, yeah, I've carved out

[00:55:44] Etienne: Yeah. Don't say I haven't warned you too like that. That says it's been on my email signature for months. Months. 

[00:55:52] Jane: we would a hundred percent. So, I'm off this week, but I know that then I'm off another week in July. So I can actually, that's already on my email signature. And then the time after that, I don't know when the time after that. Oh, the time after that I think is when we're going to Nine inch nails.

[00:56:08] Etienne: Oh, yes. Yeah. 

[00:56:10] Jane: And then, 

[00:56:11] Etienne: After that we should be doing, hopefully we can plan Iowa after 

[00:56:14] Jane: and then after that we gotta put Iowa on the calendar. 

[00:56:18] Etienne: We gotta get out there before snows Jane. 

[00:56:21] Jane: We do. I don't wanna drive. 

[00:56:23] Etienne: I don't, I don't wanna be that cold. I've saw, I've seen pictures from my ex-roommate who lives there too, in Iowa, and she was like, there's so much snow. 

[00:56:33] Heidi: Yeah, 

[00:56:34] Jane: Okay. Well, Etienne, when you were doing the traveling nurse thing and you were in Illinois, you were 

[00:56:38] Etienne: I was in snow Uhhuh. 

[00:56:39] Jane: and Yes. and 

[00:56:41] Etienne: I can do it. Yeah. It was, it was, wait, what was what, sorry.

[00:56:44] Heidi: can do 

[00:56:45] Jane: You were miserable. I remember you talking about how you were wearing like thermals 

[00:56:48] Etienne: had so much clothes on clothes. Yeah. And in inside I was wearing inside, outside, didn't matter. The only time I didn't have crazy amounts of clothes on was when I was bathing. 

[00:56:58] Etienne: I dry off, put my long underwear back, like a new set of long underwear, all of the sweaters, all I just had layers upon layers. I mean, you know, after a while your body gets acclimated to the cold, but I only had one winter there, so I'm not gonna get acclimated, you know, and there was just ice and ice piles. And I got really good at driving in the snow and the ice, I'll tell you. But oof. That was rough, man. With my manual car, by the way. Driving on ice and snow, like my little mini, it's not quite, not quite set up for that. No. 

[00:57:41] Jane: We love you, Heidi. But we don't wanna be driving on this 

[00:57:43] Heidi: No, I don't want you guys here in the winter anyway, like that, that would drive, you know, that would make me nervous wreck.

[00:57:50] Etienne: Yeah, we wanna be outside. Experience some outside. 

[00:57:53] Heidi: Yeah, exactly. I wanna take you to some sites. I already have some in mind, so

[00:57:58] Etienne: Okay. 

[00:57:58] Jane: We gotta, we gotta figure this out. 

[00:58:00] Etienne: Yeah, no problem. We can figure this out. 

[00:58:05] Jane: Intentionality. 

[00:58:07] Etienne: Exactly. 

[00:58:08] Heidi: That's our show you've been listening to, the Women are Plotting. If you have a story you'd like to share or have any comments, we'd love to hear from you. Email us info@thewomenareplotting.com and of course you can find us on all the socials. Thanks, and until next time, be safe and be excellent to each other.